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Poll
Question: Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?
Yes - because it would be better for the Scots
Yes - because the rest of the UK would be better off without the Scots
Don't really know
Don't care
No, the Union is a good thing

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Author Topic: Independence Referendum  (Read 189916 times)
Ironside
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« Reply #240 on: August 29, 2014, 12:09:39 PM »

Scotland is and always has been left of centre just look at the voting in last scotish election 60% of votes went to snp/ labour on the left another 11%libdem on centre left and only  16% for Tories
And this is the Tories fighting back in Scotland

Ukip are to the right of the Tories and have no chance in Scotland, if ukip were to running the show in uk in a coalition government Scotland wouldn't be happy
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neeko
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« Reply #241 on: August 29, 2014, 01:39:19 PM »

Has the west Lothian question been answered?

Labour must lose a shed loads of seats if Scotland is independent and therefore requires less representation in a UK parliament.
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« Reply #242 on: August 29, 2014, 01:50:51 PM »

Has the west Lothian question been answered?

Labour must lose a shed loads of seats if Scotland is independent and therefore requires less representation in a UK parliament.

Huh?

obv there won't be any MPs from Scotland after independence.
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Kmac84
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« Reply #243 on: August 29, 2014, 01:58:16 PM »

Has the west Lothian question been answered?

Labour must lose a shed loads of seats if Scotland is independent and therefore requires less representation in a UK parliament.

And this is one of the very reasons why Labour politicians fear independence.  They get thrown off the train, lose the nice expense accounts and all the freebies. 

Scumbags like Jimmy Hood have already stated they would be against independence even if our people were better off.  Because it would mean an end to his cronyism, under the table deals, regular brown envelopes and ability to swindle the Labour Party ouf of money with his friends in the Viola family.

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TightEnd
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« Reply #244 on: August 29, 2014, 02:22:57 PM »

no scottish labour mps at least makes the maths for a Conservative westminster majority (currently extremely difficult because of constituency changes, need 8% vote lead to secure a majority) possible, which i expect is part of labour's "no" vote philosophically...

Is there no affinity with UKIP  orth of the border because Scottish Nationalism and UK Nationalism (exit from Europe) seem to be at least in part common causes..wanting sovereignty, control of own affairs etc

i appreciate that in most cases the UKIP comes from the right and Scottish nationalism/yes voters from the left

but there is at least a common cause is there not?

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Ironside
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« Reply #245 on: August 29, 2014, 02:30:36 PM »

Scottish voters are much happier with Europe than those south of the border snp already say we will be part of Europe if there is a yes vote
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TightEnd
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« Reply #246 on: August 29, 2014, 02:32:49 PM »

both are different strands of nationalism. i would suggest the similariities between the two are far greater than you would think. Just have a different target in mind
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« Reply #247 on: August 29, 2014, 02:42:42 PM »

Think you are taking the word nationalism and giving it an interpretation that we don't.

Part of the SNP/Yes message is that they want to encourage immigration into Scotland as we have a shrinking population. We require it to grow and we also realise that the immigrants are actually net contributors to the system. The rise of UKIP and apparent demonizing of immigrants and those on welfare south of the border is certainly a strong reason why many wish to move away from the politics of Westminster which seems to pander to the Daily Mails view of the UK.
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Kmac84
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« Reply #248 on: August 29, 2014, 02:55:00 PM »

Think you are taking the word nationalism and giving it an interpretation that we don't.

Part of the SNP/Yes message is that they want to encourage immigration into Scotland as we have a shrinking population. We require it to grow and we also realise that the immigrants are actually net contributors to the system. The rise of UKIP and apparent demonizing of immigrants and those on welfare south of the border is certainly a strong reason why many wish to move away from the politics of Westminster which seems to pander to the Daily Mails view of the UK.

Very much this. 

And one of the reasons that BT are failing to win voters is because they are making it about Nationalism.  Its the complete oppossite for many of us.  We are internationlists. 

Obvs, we have our fair share of dunderheids who think all foreigners are bad, but mostly these opinions are from people who are disenfranchised with politics and who are in large part disefranchised from any opportunity and because they come from families that have seen 3/4 generations of people live on benefits because they know no better.   The vast majority of people in Scotland understand migration and the benefits of it.  By creating new opportunities in an independent Scotland we have a chance to change the mindsets of those previously lost to politics. 

The YES campaign has many factions, with one common goal.  I am pretty sure we want to see different things for an Independent Scotland, but we need to win the arguement first and we can then create a new vision. 
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Woodsey
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« Reply #249 on: August 29, 2014, 03:03:16 PM »

 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 03:06:19 PM by Woodsey » Logged
DungBeetle
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« Reply #250 on: August 29, 2014, 03:38:31 PM »

Still seems a conflict to me.  Either you are controlled by politicans in London, who are controlled by politicians in Europe.  Or you get controlled solely by politicians in Europe.  Is it simply that you see the Brussells masters are wise, and the London masters as incompetent?  Or do you see Europe as not such a dominating force as London is?
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Ironside
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« Reply #251 on: August 29, 2014, 05:15:33 PM »

dung the SNP are after a Scottish voice in Europe
rather than being an after thought of a UK voice in europe
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« Reply #252 on: August 29, 2014, 08:42:42 PM »

Still seems a conflict to me.  Either you are controlled by politicans in London, who are controlled by politicians in Europe.  Or you get controlled solely by politicians in Europe.  Is it simply that you see the Brussells masters are wise, and the London masters as incompetent?  Or do you see Europe as not such a dominating force as London is?

That's complete bullsht though.  Very much like the line that the UKIP spout.  London is not controlled by Brussells, sure there are many legistlative powers passed down from the EU but the majority of these I and I would think the majority of Scots have no issues with.  What we do have issue with is:

The lies of Westminister and the complete and utter waste of Scotland's natural resources. 
The storage of Nuclear Weapons 25 miles from our most populated city
The denationalisation of industries such as the railway/post office/energy companies
Closure of our heavy industries without proper training opportunities being given to those who were put out of work.
Closure of our mines and steel plants. 
The continued lie that Scotland is subsidised by the UK. 
A foreign country having control over our budget and deciding what the majority of our money is spent on. 
The lack of opportunity for our future generations.
The bedroom tax, Poll tax (insert whatever the next tory government decide to tax)
Being dragged into illegal wars.

The list goes on.  But these problems are not specific to Scotland, they impact other areas of the UK as it stands but we can be a beacon to show that a different way is possible. 

Since the end of the 2nd world war more than 140 countries have gained their independence nobody has crawled back to their forner tyrants.  Scotland is in a better position than the vast majority of these countries and will be a success, because the people of Scotland are best placed to govern their own country, their is nothing wrong with that.  Infact it would be abnormal not to want that.  Unfortunately there are still many in Scotland who subversive and due to been brown beaten for many a year and being talked down to they lack any sort of aspiration.

I still ask the question though, because it does interest me very much if Scotland was such a weight around the neck why are the establishment fighting tooth and nail and employing every dirty trick campaign to try and make sure the no vote wins. 

They lied to us in the 70's about oil, they lied about devolution in 79 told us our industries would face closure by voting yes back then, we voted no and what did we get?  All our major industries closed and we got Thatcher.  They spouted their lies in 1997.  We won back then, although it was a hollow victory and we will win this time round. 
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DungBeetle
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« Reply #253 on: August 30, 2014, 10:26:28 AM »

As I've mentioned before, depending on what assumptions you make about debt, borrowing capacity and oil, you can make an argument for Scotland being better or worse off as an independent nation.

You seem to blame the "tyrants" for everything.  If you gain independence who will you blame when your heavy industries/mines/steel plants are still closed because they are uncompetitive in the global economy?  Who will you blame when there are still no opportunities for your young folk due to them being undercut by international rivals?  How will you nationalise your railways when your borrowing capacity is reduced due to your independence and your borrowing rate increases?

I can see you hate the English, but blaming Westminster for all of your society's ills is not sensible.  I think it's quite possible that Scotland will prosper on it's own, but your last post was just a partisan rant.
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Kmac84
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« Reply #254 on: August 30, 2014, 06:02:37 PM »

As I've mentioned before, depending on what assumptions you make about debt, borrowing capacity and oil, you can make an argument for Scotland being better or worse off as an independent nation.

You seem to blame the "tyrants" for everything.  If you gain independence who will you blame when your heavy industries/mines/steel plants are still closed because they are uncompetitive in the global economy?  Who will you blame when there are still no opportunities for your young folk due to them being undercut by international rivals?  How will you nationalise your railways when your borrowing capacity is reduced due to your independence and your borrowing rate increases?

I can see you hate the English, but blaming Westminster for all of your society's ills is not sensible.  I think it's quite possible that Scotland will prosper on it's own, but your last post was just a partisan rant.

Hold it right there.  I don't hate the English.  I hate the little Englander mentality, I hate the tories, I hate UKIP.  But the vast majority of English people I have come across are absolutey stand up people.  I work with many English folk day in day out in my line of work. 

Who would you suggest I blame for the wrongs of Scotland?  We don't govern enough of it ourselves to blame anyone else other than Westminister.  For the powers the Scottish Parliament has I think they do a fine job.  Sure there are  still things they do I don't agree with but with them being closer to us and much more engagement at local level we are able to get things changed quicker. 

If Scotland gets its independence and things go tits up then I will blame the government of the day, but at least it will be a government that we voted for.  So we will have noone to blame but ourselves. 

It is normal to want independence, why wouldn't you.  It's not about hatred as you try and portray.  It's about identity and empowerment. 

There are too many decisions made by a neo-liberal clique for the whole of the UK at the moment that are not in the interest of the people.  Scotland can show a different way is possible and that can be the key to change for all of this island.  I want to seen an independent Scotland/England and Wales and a United Ireland.  I think then we would be better for it, we would have control of our own destiny and we would be much better neighbours. 

As for your point about Oil, its not just about that.  Obviously that is a bug bear because whilst our industries were closed down and nothing was done about it our oil revenues were being used to prop up the City boys.  It was never re-invested.  Our council houses were sold off at much reduced rates and no rebuilding process was put in place to build new, affordable social housing. 

Without the black stuff Scotland still has a very healthy economy.  Scotland’s economy is also based on a much wider range of sectors – including retail, construction, tourism, manufacturing, electronics, textiles, banking, asset management, higher education, the creative sector, fishing, whisky and the thriving food and drink sector.
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