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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2200269 times)
TightEnd
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« Reply #15645 on: December 12, 2018, 09:57:41 AM »

A sweepstake on the vote of confidence in Theresa May now closes at 1800hrs today  

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd-5qMIw5QE6CujN-rAGLJCZFi4XgwAvCPo20XAhgXm6mzC0Q/viewform?usp=sf_link

Average after 99 entries: confidence 174, no confidence 134 (assumes 8 non-voters)

Reminder they need 158 to topple her outright, but in practice it is thought anything more than 100 dissenters would be difficult

--

if so we are into applications, getting those applications to heads up via MP votes, then sending the two finalists to members to vote

Boris is the overwhelming favourite of members BUT its not as easy as that. several sensible tory MPs (its all relative) have indicated that they will resign the whip if he becomes PM

then there is the issue of how quickly this can happen, what that means for the brexit deal and whether A50 will need to be extended in the meantime

its high stakes stuff, they might change prime minister but delay/lose brexit

--

quite how it looks to voters and what voters will do to the Conservative party next time they get the chance to vote doesn't appear to be top of their thinking right now :-)

 

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« Reply #15646 on: December 12, 2018, 10:04:54 AM »

If she is replaced by a hard brexiter you will hear a lot more about "managed no deal"

A few edits from yesterday's BBC World Service's Newshour.

'There are so many moving parts, so little structure to how it plays out, but the only thing we really know is the deadline 29/03/19 & something needs to change before then, or else we fall out with no deal.'

https://twitter.com/mpc_1968/status/1072761923203162112

 'I do think it's not an exaggeration to say this is arguably the most profound crisis since the end of the WWII.'

https://twitter.com/mpc_1968/status/1072762800957779971

 'In that mess Britain has sort of imploded into a political puddle....'

https://twitter.com/mpc_1968/status/1072763441369268225

a nutshell explainer on what a managed no-deal Brexit would look like.

https://twitter.com/mpc_1968/status/1072764089535995909
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« Reply #15647 on: December 12, 2018, 11:17:44 AM »

paddy .....

TOTAL VOTES AGAINST MAY IN NO CONFIDENCE VOTE

70-89............5/1
90-109.........11/4
110-129.........5/1
130-149.........7/1

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« Reply #15648 on: December 12, 2018, 11:37:34 AM »

Depending where you stand on him, Jeremy Corbyn is giving a masterclass by inaction or masterclass of inaction.
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« Reply #15649 on: December 12, 2018, 11:54:01 AM »

Depending where you stand on him, Jeremy Corbyn is giving a masterclass by inaction or masterclass of inaction.

Labour is the official Opposition but it will not call a confidence vote because it fears it cannot win.

It is also reluctant to support a PeoplesVote because that might upset its Leave voters.

Public interest, anyone?

--

when the story of all this comes to be written and filmed, the fact you have a remainer leading a party with a majority of leavers and a leaver leading a party with a majority of remainers..and what contortions this leads to on both sides will be a nice sub-plot
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« Reply #15650 on: December 12, 2018, 12:41:43 PM »

Depending where you stand on him, Jeremy Corbyn is giving a masterclass by inaction or masterclass of inaction.

Was thinking this the other day. A few weeks back I was tending to the view that their disingenuous stance ( in my view ) was gonna bite them. It does start to look like a masterclass with the Tories and DUP scaling new heights of idiocy by the day
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« Reply #15651 on: December 12, 2018, 01:35:21 PM »

Depending where you stand on him, Jeremy Corbyn is giving a masterclass by inaction or masterclass of inaction.


I know where I'd like to stand on him...
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« Reply #15652 on: December 12, 2018, 01:42:40 PM »

Depending where you stand on him, Jeremy Corbyn is giving a masterclass by inaction or masterclass of inaction.


I know where I'd like to stand on him...

Is it on his winky?
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« Reply #15653 on: December 12, 2018, 08:05:37 PM »

110-129 no confidence votes was 7/1 this morning. Now 7/2.

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« Reply #15654 on: December 12, 2018, 08:49:40 PM »

110-129 no confidence votes was 7/1 this morning. Now 7/2.



ERG are briefing mid 80's....so 110 could be about right  Smiley
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« Reply #15655 on: December 13, 2018, 12:36:18 PM »

So The win, coupled with the announcement she will not fight the next election, means she can just about soldier on for now.

But the political reality is she’s probably now got a maximum of 12 months left of her premiership.

The fundamentals are the same: parliament will have to decide between the deal, no-deal, or revoking Article 50.

In this, there is no parliamentary majority for any option.

We now know there are about 117 votes for no deal. Plus maybe another 10-20 from DUP and Labour.  In theoretical terms this is not enough except the exit date of 29th March 2019 is set in stone – written into the European Union (Withdrawal) Act in black and white – and it would require new primary legislation to overturn that - and the default option if nothing is agreed is no deal. Despite the Grieve amendment Parliament cannot simply block ‘No Deal’ as it is the default option.

As both May (respect the vote) and Corbyn (a leaver) don't want a people's vote, and as the current deal doesn't look like it can be substantially altered and can't pass (her favoured option may be to take it right through to Match and hope the ERG and DUP blink, but no sign of that being successful), and as revoking is a no no we are into two options:

no deal or extension of Article 50 to avoid no deal.

However the latter option would seem to need an "event" impending election or impending referendum that might lead to material change to be granted by the EU but last night has given her immuity for a year and Corbyn won't do a no confidence vote, not so much because he thinks he cant win one but because he is in "wait it out" mode so as to have none of this on his hands come the next election

So it looks like no deal.....

except we aren't ready. We are behind EU readiness. Reports suggest that to be ready up to 15 major government IT systems need rejigging, these, it being central goverment, take years. We have til 29th March

The political & economic integration of EU member states is complex & very far reaching, touching every area of trade & governance, and we have become progressively more integrated over 40 years...

The latest myth is about a 'managed no deal', which exaggerates the extent we can mitigate the economic damage and inevitable political fallout of this unnecessary shock treatment

there is a good piece on how this is a fallcy here https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/no-such-thing-managed-no-deal-brexit

Another piece on the practical consequences of No deal https://reaction.life/hard-brexiteers-dont-understand-consequences-wto-deal-brexit/

the reality of 'no deal'. Particularly excellent on the risks to the supply chain in food. http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/07/27/this-is-what-no-deal-brexit-actually-looks-like

but none of this might matter if the political system is in paralysis, unable to find a solution, which is the current state

This week JK Rowling (a committed remainer, of course) wrote the following

"My mentions have taught me that Brexit is like Trump’s wall. For its devoted fans it has a symbolic value totally unrelated to its workability, its true cost or the glaring self-interest of its proposers, whereas non-believers see nothing but a deranged and costly vanity project."

I think we are all going to lose over the short to medium term, whilst of course happy to leave myself open to the view that there are long term benefits to be gained.

It is time to buckle up.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 12:40:43 PM by TightEnd » Logged

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« Reply #15656 on: December 13, 2018, 12:39:33 PM »

A lot of people talking about a “managed no deal” or a “clean Brexit”.

Worth underlining that pretty much everyone close to the negotiations thinks there is no such thing:

v hard to see how it could be anything other than chaotic.

Here is how Ivan Rogers, the former UK Ambassador to the EU and political negotiator, put it recently:
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 12:44:17 PM by TightEnd » Logged

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« Reply #15657 on: December 13, 2018, 12:48:21 PM »

Irish PM Leo Varadkar:

'I do believe there’s a majority that the UK should not be plunged into a no-deal scenario and it is in their hands at any point in time to take the threat of no-deal off the table either by revoking Article 50 or if that’s a step too far, by extending it.'

but how, practically?

There is of course frustration amongst Brextiers at the "power" Irealand have had throughout the last two years but it shows that in practice the EU can enhance a members sovereignty, and back it up to the hilt, when treaties such as the GFA are threatened.

A salutary lesson
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« Reply #15658 on: December 13, 2018, 12:49:59 PM »

This is really clever analysis.

cliffs: it really is all Cameron fault for using the brexit referendum to fix Tory Party. And he should have tackled immigration side-effects directly, not via proxy.

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/12/11/1544504400000/The-only-Brexit-chart-you-need-to-see/
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« Reply #15659 on: December 13, 2018, 01:12:33 PM »

James Cleverly last night on Boris' new "leadership haircut" unveiled at the weekend:

"That's £7.50 he'll never get back."

 Click to see full-size image.
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