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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 56

Pages: 1 ... 1136 1137 1138 1139 [1140] 1141 1142 1143 1144 ... 1529 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 1328513 times)
kukushkin88
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« Reply #17085 on: April 04, 2019, 09:28:07 PM »

When people mention polls be back up their arguement can we get a link or reference to the poll? It completely invalidates using it as evidence if you don’t.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/361

This was what I looked at when referencing over 70% thought immigration too high etc

You do know that poll is three years old, and that Migration Watch is the ‘go to’ think tank for the Mail and the Express?
As Sir Humphrey demonstrated to Bernard in Yes, Prime Minister it is pretty easy to get poll results that suit your agenda. The hard task is creating a poll that gets a genuine representation of the views of the nation.



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/poll-three-quarters-of-brits-back-dramatic-fall-in-immigration/amp/

Here’s another dodgy right wing poll on the UK public’s opinion on immigration in 2018 (Channel 4 News poll).

The majority of the public, around 75%, (including remain voters) backed a dramatic drop in immigration numbers.

You can perhaps understand my perspective on why any deal which retains freedom of movement from the EU is politicians ignoring the view of the people.

These poll numbers are the reason why the main stream parties both adopted the policy to end EU freedom of movement.



As I have said before, and again, as Sir Humphrey explained, poll questions can be tailored to a cause.

As a for instance, Q14 says “Which of the following do you MOST agree with” and gives a binary choice of

It is more important to control immigration from EU countries because it has put too much of a strain on our resources like housing and the NHS,
OR
It is more important that we allow in however many people from EU countries that we need to fill the available jobs to help drive the economy

The first option assumes that all our resource issues in housing and the NHS stem from EU freedom of movement (they don’t)
The second introduces the idea that EU citizens are filling all available jobs

Polls are like bikinis, what they reveal may be interesting. What they conceal is vital.





So basically if the poll doesn't suit your opinion it can be as good as dismissed as bordering on meaningless then.

Not much point in posting poll results on that basis as we can all say, "what they conceal is vital", especially when the findings don't suit your point of view or beliefs.

Here's one direct from YouGov's own website in 2018. Findings are similar (with marginally reduction in numbers not happy with immigration numbers). Perhaps you could pull YouGov's questioning on this one to pieces?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/04/27/where-public-stands-immigration

What all three polls I have posted demostrate is a consistent disatifaction with UK immigration policy of successive Governments when EU freedom of movement has been allowed.

This cant be dismissed as manipulation. These were peoples views. You seem as adept as the politicians at ignoring the reality of public opinion.


What’s more interesting to me is what it is that people don’t like about immigration. We’ve (Tighty) shown before that immigrants are economically bigger per capita net contributors than UK citizens. Seems like we need their contribution, so should welcome it.
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aaron1867
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« Reply #17086 on: April 04, 2019, 10:34:23 PM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.
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aaron1867
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« Reply #17087 on: April 04, 2019, 10:38:04 PM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

Total rubbish, and if you expanded your rhetoric beyond your own 4 walls you will read and see thousands of people telling you they knew enough.

Even now we know very little about what will ACTUALLY  happen, so I still dont see how remoaners can remain so adamant it won't work. Clearly we have 17 million Nostrdamus' in the UK.

Finally, who do we let vote next time for your Peoples Vote. To my mind it should only be those that could be bothered to vote last time. Why should someone who couldn't be bothered last time now have a say on the same subject?

So many Leavers have gotten so dejected by democracy being trampled on they won't bother again, so that won't be fair either, will or?

But you won't care as long as you get your way and have have a very grown up gloat.....

You just don’t want to admit that you was part of a group of people who ultimately got their way because of lies and stupidity. As for dejection, it dimes this whole thing up, because they believed xyz was going to happen & it was never going to happen.
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Pokerpops
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« Reply #17088 on: April 04, 2019, 10:50:28 PM »

When people mention polls be back up their arguement can we get a link or reference to the poll? It completely invalidates using it as evidence if you don’t.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/361

This was what I looked at when referencing over 70% thought immigration too high etc

You do know that poll is three years old, and that Migration Watch is the ‘go to’ think tank for the Mail and the Express?
As Sir Humphrey demonstrated to Bernard in Yes, Prime Minister it is pretty easy to get poll results that suit your agenda. The hard task is creating a poll that gets a genuine representation of the views of the nation.



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/poll-three-quarters-of-brits-back-dramatic-fall-in-immigration/amp/

Here’s another dodgy right wing poll on the UK public’s opinion on immigration in 2018 (Channel 4 News poll).

The majority of the public, around 75%, (including remain voters) backed a dramatic drop in immigration numbers.

You can perhaps understand my perspective on why any deal which retains freedom of movement from the EU is politicians ignoring the view of the people.

These poll numbers are the reason why the main stream parties both adopted the policy to end EU freedom of movement.



As I have said before, and again, as Sir Humphrey explained, poll questions can be tailored to a cause.

As a for instance, Q14 says “Which of the following do you MOST agree with” and gives a binary choice of

It is more important to control immigration from EU countries because it has put too much of a strain on our resources like housing and the NHS,
OR
It is more important that we allow in however many people from EU countries that we need to fill the available jobs to help drive the economy

The first option assumes that all our resource issues in housing and the NHS stem from EU freedom of movement (they don’t)
The second introduces the idea that EU citizens are filling all available jobs

Polls are like bikinis, what they reveal may be interesting. What they conceal is vital.





So basically if the poll doesn't suit your opinion it can be as good as dismissed as bordering on meaningless then.

Not much point in posting poll results on that basis as we can all say, "what they conceal is vital", especially when the findings don't suit your point of view or beliefs.

Here's one direct from YouGov's own website in 2018. Findings are similar (with marginally reduction in numbers not happy with immigration numbers). Perhaps you could pull YouGov's questioning on this one to pieces?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/04/27/where-public-stands-immigration

What all three polls I have posted demostrate is a consistent disatifaction with UK immigration policy of successive Governments when EU freedom of movement has been allowed.

This cant be dismissed as manipulation. These were peoples views. You seem as adept as the politicians at ignoring the reality of public opinion.

It’s not about whether polls match my view, it’s about checking the honesty of the poll, and also checking the honesty of their use.

For example, the latest link you posted does support the headline statement you picked up, The % who thought immigration was too high is falling though. Down from 70% to 63%. Still high though.

BUT, beneath that headline figure there is another set of numbers which shows how these surveys produce contradictory answers from a carefully selected group of people who represent the public.

Over 70% of people are happy with either the same or increased levels of skilled immigration, almost three quarters (73%) are happy with existing or increased numbers of foreign students paying to study at British universities, and 57% are happy with the same number of or more people fleeing persecution or war coming here. Additionally, nearing four in ten (38%) are happy with the current number of immigrants coming to work in the NHS and the same proportion (38%) would like to see more.”

So the same group of respondents that is 63% against increased immigration is 75% in favour of higher immigration for NHS staff,


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« Reply #17089 on: April 04, 2019, 10:55:44 PM »

When people mention polls be back up their arguement can we get a link or reference to the poll? It completely invalidates using it as evidence if you don’t.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/361

This was what I looked at when referencing over 70% thought immigration too high etc

You do know that poll is three years old, and that Migration Watch is the ‘go to’ think tank for the Mail and the Express?
As Sir Humphrey demonstrated to Bernard in Yes, Prime Minister it is pretty easy to get poll results that suit your agenda. The hard task is creating a poll that gets a genuine representation of the views of the nation.



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/poll-three-quarters-of-brits-back-dramatic-fall-in-immigration/amp/

Here’s another dodgy right wing poll on the UK public’s opinion on immigration in 2018 (Channel 4 News poll).

The majority of the public, around 75%, (including remain voters) backed a dramatic drop in immigration numbers.

You can perhaps understand my perspective on why any deal which retains freedom of movement from the EU is politicians ignoring the view of the people.

These poll numbers are the reason why the main stream parties both adopted the policy to end EU freedom of movement.



As I have said before, and again, as Sir Humphrey explained, poll questions can be tailored to a cause.

As a for instance, Q14 says “Which of the following do you MOST agree with” and gives a binary choice of

It is more important to control immigration from EU countries because it has put too much of a strain on our resources like housing and the NHS,
OR
It is more important that we allow in however many people from EU countries that we need to fill the available jobs to help drive the economy

The first option assumes that all our resource issues in housing and the NHS stem from EU freedom of movement (they don’t)
The second introduces the idea that EU citizens are filling all available jobs

Polls are like bikinis, what they reveal may be interesting. What they conceal is vital.





So basically if the poll doesn't suit your opinion it can be as good as dismissed as bordering on meaningless then.

Not much point in posting poll results on that basis as we can all say, "what they conceal is vital", especially when the findings don't suit your point of view or beliefs.

Here's one direct from YouGov's own website in 2018. Findings are similar (with marginally reduction in numbers not happy with immigration numbers). Perhaps you could pull YouGov's questioning on this one to pieces?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/04/27/where-public-stands-immigration

What all three polls I have posted demostrate is a consistent disatifaction with UK immigration policy of successive Governments when EU freedom of movement has been allowed.

This cant be dismissed as manipulation. These were peoples views. You seem as adept as the politicians at ignoring the reality of public opinion.




This was covered above, asking questions purely about immigration are not going to get people's views on freedom of movement.  

For instance, here is a poll on freedom of movement.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-free-movement-support-brexit-british-people-leave-european-union-survey-a7872816.html


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« Reply #17090 on: April 04, 2019, 10:58:27 PM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?
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aaron1867
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« Reply #17091 on: April 05, 2019, 02:58:36 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.
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nirvana
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« Reply #17092 on: April 05, 2019, 06:49:57 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.
Oh man. If we think the crying was hard from the 16m haves at leaving imagine the grief if we voted to leave again and voted for no deal.. Likely from the people with a propensity to leave.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #17093 on: April 05, 2019, 07:21:09 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.
Oh man. If we think the crying was hard from the 16m haves at leaving imagine the grief if we voted to leave again and voted for no deal.. Likely from the people with a propensity to leave.

Parliament would still have to ratify it though, with no deal and the incumbent MP’s, that would be close to impossible. We’d be back where we are now. The government would have to campaign against no deal. It would be interesting to see what senior leave Conservatives would do.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #17094 on: April 05, 2019, 07:31:01 AM »


I guess it’s more accurate to say it just wouldn’t be put on a referendum. I think because May has agreed to keep it on the table as a ‘bargaining chip’ (the logic for this is just ridiculous) people have misunderstood how catastrophic it would be.
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nirvana
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« Reply #17095 on: April 05, 2019, 07:38:24 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.
Oh man. If we think the crying was hard from the 16m haves at leaving imagine the grief if we voted to leave again and voted for no deal.. Likely from the people with a propensity to leave.

Parliament would still have to ratify it though, with no deal and the incumbent MP’s, that would be close to impossible. We’d be back where we are now. The government would have to campaign against no deal. It would be interesting to see what senior leave Conservatives would do.
[/quote

Precisely. Let's hope we never get presented with choices that parliament won't ratify.
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« Reply #17096 on: April 05, 2019, 08:08:05 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.
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« Reply #17097 on: April 05, 2019, 08:21:18 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


Pokerpops you put it so much better than I would.

Aaron, you are so far off the mark on this its incredible.

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kukushkin88
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« Reply #17098 on: April 05, 2019, 08:27:10 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


Pokerpops you put it so much better than I would.

Aaron, you are so far off the mark on this its incredible.


Yep, the key point is almost no one knew what they were voting for in 2016, on both sides. Also you can’t split the leave vote in a second referendum without introducing a massive bias.
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« Reply #17099 on: April 05, 2019, 08:48:37 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


One of the best posts on this thread.

It will also mean that Aaron needs to explain why he wanted to remain in a bit more detail than because he love Status Quo.

This in turn will mean he won't be able to answer and he will slime off for a while until something more basic like yes or no is the only answer again.

Anyone in any doubt about how rational thinking other EU members think should watch the female German MEP stand up in the European Parliament and give it both barrels to Macron, Merkle, Junker, et al, about the appalling way the UK has been treated during this process and some of the Facts about who puts in what to the EU and how much we get out. Which in turn she understands why we want out and as a result of our endless giving over the years earns us a respectful exit.

Once you have seen that, I think you will understand a bit better why the EU as it stands may not be the land of milk and honey some people think it currently is.

Meanwhile Aaron can get Whatever you want, as the UK goes Down, Down. And based on What you're proposing, There's nothing bout you Aaron I like.

Maybe a spell In the Army, would do you good.
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