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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 56

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 1327681 times)
Pokerpops
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« Reply #17100 on: April 05, 2019, 09:06:20 AM »

Oh my word.

I got approval from Stuart Hopkin, Kukushkin, and BigArz all for the same post!

It’s all too much. I think I better go and have a lay down.
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« Reply #17101 on: April 05, 2019, 11:46:11 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


One of the best posts on this thread.

It will also mean that Aaron needs to explain why he wanted to remain in a bit more detail than because he love Status Quo.

This in turn will mean he won't be able to answer and he will slime off for a while until something more basic like yes or no is the only answer again.

Anyone in any doubt about how rational thinking other EU members think should watch the female German MEP stand up in the European Parliament and give it both barrels to Macron, Merkle, Junker, et al, about the appalling way the UK has been treated during this process and some of the Facts about who puts in what to the EU and how much we get out. Which in turn she understands why we want out and as a result of our endless giving over the years earns us a respectful exit.

Once you have seen that, I think you will understand a bit better why the EU as it stands may not be the land of milk and honey some people think it currently is.

Meanwhile Aaron can get Whatever you want, as the UK goes Down, Down. And based on What you're proposing, There's nothing bout you Aaron I like.

Maybe a spell In the Army, would do you good.

This is why I like Adzy
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #17102 on: April 05, 2019, 11:48:58 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


One of the best posts on this thread.

It will also mean that Aaron needs to explain why he wanted to remain in a bit more detail than because he love Status Quo.

This in turn will mean he won't be able to answer and he will slime off for a while until something more basic like yes or no is the only answer again.

Anyone in any doubt about how rational thinking other EU members think should watch the female German MEP stand up in the European Parliament and give it both barrels to Macron, Merkle, Junker, et al, about the appalling way the UK has been treated during this process and some of the Facts about who puts in what to the EU and how much we get out. Which in turn she understands why we want out and as a result of our endless giving over the years earns us a respectful exit.


You might find this guy interesting, he speaks intelligently in a similar vein to Henkel on this kind of topic:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/97c49240-336c-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5

edit: Actually maybe we were taking about a different German MEP, I’m not sure.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 11:51:01 AM by kukushkin88 » Logged
Sheriff Fatman
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« Reply #17103 on: April 05, 2019, 11:49:52 AM »

I missed the original airing on Monday, but watched the Laura Kuenssberg Brexit documentary on iPlayer.  Absolutely fascinating behind the scenes footage from the last 12 months or so, and some revealing insights, in particular the interviews with the Chief Whip and the snippets of footage from inside ERG meetings.

Well worth a watch for anyone interested enough in Brexit, which if you're reading this thread it suggests you are.
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« Reply #17104 on: April 05, 2019, 12:38:16 PM »

It's been quite interesting following the arguments about what people understood/meant when they voted almost 3 years ago.  One resource that might be easy to overlook is this thread itself, as digging back into the earlier pages contains all the discussion on this at the time.

I had a quick look through a few pages to try and find a relatively balanced pre-vote article showing that a vote to leave wasn't necessarily a vote for the hard Brexit lines on immigration, single market and customs union that some would argue.  Of the posts I read, this is probably the most balanced one in the thread, from the day before the referendum, linking to a Guardian article discussing various issues high on the agenda (the video snippets are interesting viewing too, especially with the benefit of hindsight).

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=65461.msg2141263#msg2141263

I'm sure there are all sorts of interpretations that people will take from the content, but the following quote is the one that is most pertinent to me, as it shows that nothing was cut and dried about the method of exit proposed at the time the vote took place.  "Moreover, leaving the EU may not reduce EU immigration. If Britain remains part of the single market, it will have to accept some freedom of movement."

I haven't yet started reading the posts from the day of the vote or the aftermath of the result, but it's a fascinating resource to look back on.

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Longines
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« Reply #17105 on: April 05, 2019, 01:39:39 PM »

Regarding what were we voting on three years ago, this is very interesting:

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/1113547733300842497
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« Reply #17106 on: April 05, 2019, 02:17:50 PM »

We are never going to leave the EU are we?
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« Reply #17107 on: April 05, 2019, 02:27:30 PM »

We are never going to leave the EU are we?

We never were RDog Sad
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« Reply #17108 on: April 05, 2019, 02:38:03 PM »

We are never going to leave the EU are we?

When you see some of the old May footage in her pre PM days she was a staunch Remainer.

How we ever let her run this process and expected to ever Leave is staggering.
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« Reply #17109 on: April 05, 2019, 02:48:11 PM »

Oh my word.

I got approval from Stuart Hopkin, Kukushkin, and BigArz all for the same post!

It’s all too much. I think I better go and have a lay down.

Bit worried to find myself in that trio!
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aaron1867
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« Reply #17110 on: April 05, 2019, 02:50:07 PM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


One of the best posts on this thread.

It will also mean that Aaron needs to explain why he wanted to remain in a bit more detail than because he love Status Quo.

This in turn will mean he won't be able to answer and he will slime off for a while until something more basic like yes or no is the only answer again.

Anyone in any doubt about how rational thinking other EU members think should watch the female German MEP stand up in the European Parliament and give it both barrels to Macron, Merkle, Junker, et al, about the appalling way the UK has been treated during this process and some of the Facts about who puts in what to the EU and how much we get out. Which in turn she understands why we want out and as a result of our endless giving over the years earns us a respectful exit.

Once you have seen that, I think you will understand a bit better why the EU as it stands may not be the land of milk and honey some people think it currently is.

Meanwhile Aaron can get Whatever you want, as the UK goes Down, Down. And based on What you're proposing, There's nothing bout you Aaron I like.

Maybe a spell In the Army, would do you good.

You are trying to put words in my mouth. I’ve never said EU is the land of glory, but it’s a hell of a lot better than Brexit. But of course, you want to say that, whilst throwing your insults.

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kukushkin88
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« Reply #17111 on: April 05, 2019, 02:51:56 PM »

Oh my word.

I got approval from Stuart Hopkin, Kukushkin, and BigArz all for the same post!

It’s all too much. I think I better go and have a lay down.

Bit worried to find myself in that trio!

Imagine how I feel! :-)
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typhoon13
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« Reply #17112 on: April 05, 2019, 03:05:07 PM »

We are never going to leave the EU are we?

When you see some of the old May footage in her pre PM days she was a staunch Remainer.

How we ever let her run this process and expected to ever Leave is staggering.

She should of got Trump and Farage to broker the deal, it would of been sorted months ago with no pissing about, then we could of kicked on and started paddling our own canoe...like we should be doing NOW

She's always been to weak for this
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« Reply #17113 on: April 05, 2019, 03:40:29 PM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


One of the best posts on this thread.

It will also mean that Aaron needs to explain why he wanted to remain in a bit more detail than because he love Status Quo.

This in turn will mean he won't be able to answer and he will slime off for a while until something more basic like yes or no is the only answer again.

Anyone in any doubt about how rational thinking other EU members think should watch the female German MEP stand up in the European Parliament and give it both barrels to Macron, Merkle, Junker, et al, about the appalling way the UK has been treated during this process and some of the Facts about who puts in what to the EU and how much we get out. Which in turn she understands why we want out and as a result of our endless giving over the years earns us a respectful exit.


You might find this guy interesting, he speaks intelligently in a similar vein to Henkel on this kind of topic:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/97c49240-336c-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5

edit: Actually maybe we were taking about a different German MEP, I’m not sure.


Adzy isnt referring to an MEP, it was the leader of the AfD in the Bundestag
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« Reply #17114 on: April 05, 2019, 03:49:44 PM »

It's been quite interesting following the arguments about what people understood/meant when they voted almost 3 years ago.  One resource that might be easy to overlook is this thread itself, as digging back into the earlier pages contains all the discussion on this at the time.

I had a quick look through a few pages to try and find a relatively balanced pre-vote article showing that a vote to leave wasn't necessarily a vote for the hard Brexit lines on immigration, single market and customs union that some would argue.  Of the posts I read, this is probably the most balanced one in the thread, from the day before the referendum, linking to a Guardian article discussing various issues high on the agenda (the video snippets are interesting viewing too, especially with the benefit of hindsight).

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=65461.msg2141263#msg2141263

I'm sure there are all sorts of interpretations that people will take from the content, but the following quote is the one that is most pertinent to me, as it shows that nothing was cut and dried about the method of exit proposed at the time the vote took place.  "Moreover, leaving the EU may not reduce EU immigration. If Britain remains part of the single market, it will have to accept some freedom of movement."

I haven't yet started reading the posts from the day of the vote or the aftermath of the result, but it's a fascinating resource to look back on.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003wfc/this-week-04042019

From This Week, from around 13.30 to 17.00 mins talks about how the objectives of revolution change during the revolution - found it quite interesting from Portillo at around 16.50
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