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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

Pages: 1 ... 1136 1137 1138 1139 [1140] 1141 1142 1143 1144 ... 1533 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180763 times)
kukushkin88
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« Reply #17085 on: April 05, 2019, 07:21:09 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.
Oh man. If we think the crying was hard from the 16m haves at leaving imagine the grief if we voted to leave again and voted for no deal.. Likely from the people with a propensity to leave.

Parliament would still have to ratify it though, with no deal and the incumbent MP’s, that would be close to impossible. We’d be back where we are now. The government would have to campaign against no deal. It would be interesting to see what senior leave Conservatives would do.
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« Reply #17086 on: April 05, 2019, 07:31:01 AM »


I guess it’s more accurate to say it just wouldn’t be put on a referendum. I think because May has agreed to keep it on the table as a ‘bargaining chip’ (the logic for this is just ridiculous) people have misunderstood how catastrophic it would be.
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« Reply #17087 on: April 05, 2019, 07:38:24 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.
Oh man. If we think the crying was hard from the 16m haves at leaving imagine the grief if we voted to leave again and voted for no deal.. Likely from the people with a propensity to leave.

Parliament would still have to ratify it though, with no deal and the incumbent MP’s, that would be close to impossible. We’d be back where we are now. The government would have to campaign against no deal. It would be interesting to see what senior leave Conservatives would do.
[/quote

Precisely. Let's hope we never get presented with choices that parliament won't ratify.
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« Reply #17088 on: April 05, 2019, 08:08:05 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.
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« Reply #17089 on: April 05, 2019, 08:21:18 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


Pokerpops you put it so much better than I would.

Aaron, you are so far off the mark on this its incredible.

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kukushkin88
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« Reply #17090 on: April 05, 2019, 08:27:10 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


Pokerpops you put it so much better than I would.

Aaron, you are so far off the mark on this its incredible.


Yep, the key point is almost no one knew what they were voting for in 2016, on both sides. Also you can’t split the leave vote in a second referendum without introducing a massive bias.
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« Reply #17091 on: April 05, 2019, 08:48:37 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


One of the best posts on this thread.

It will also mean that Aaron needs to explain why he wanted to remain in a bit more detail than because he love Status Quo.

This in turn will mean he won't be able to answer and he will slime off for a while until something more basic like yes or no is the only answer again.

Anyone in any doubt about how rational thinking other EU members think should watch the female German MEP stand up in the European Parliament and give it both barrels to Macron, Merkle, Junker, et al, about the appalling way the UK has been treated during this process and some of the Facts about who puts in what to the EU and how much we get out. Which in turn she understands why we want out and as a result of our endless giving over the years earns us a respectful exit.

Once you have seen that, I think you will understand a bit better why the EU as it stands may not be the land of milk and honey some people think it currently is.

Meanwhile Aaron can get Whatever you want, as the UK goes Down, Down. And based on What you're proposing, There's nothing bout you Aaron I like.

Maybe a spell In the Army, would do you good.
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« Reply #17092 on: April 05, 2019, 09:06:20 AM »

Oh my word.

I got approval from Stuart Hopkin, Kukushkin, and BigArz all for the same post!

It’s all too much. I think I better go and have a lay down.
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« Reply #17093 on: April 05, 2019, 11:46:11 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


One of the best posts on this thread.

It will also mean that Aaron needs to explain why he wanted to remain in a bit more detail than because he love Status Quo.

This in turn will mean he won't be able to answer and he will slime off for a while until something more basic like yes or no is the only answer again.

Anyone in any doubt about how rational thinking other EU members think should watch the female German MEP stand up in the European Parliament and give it both barrels to Macron, Merkle, Junker, et al, about the appalling way the UK has been treated during this process and some of the Facts about who puts in what to the EU and how much we get out. Which in turn she understands why we want out and as a result of our endless giving over the years earns us a respectful exit.

Once you have seen that, I think you will understand a bit better why the EU as it stands may not be the land of milk and honey some people think it currently is.

Meanwhile Aaron can get Whatever you want, as the UK goes Down, Down. And based on What you're proposing, There's nothing bout you Aaron I like.

Maybe a spell In the Army, would do you good.

This is why I like Adzy
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #17094 on: April 05, 2019, 11:48:58 AM »

Bless you Aaron for remaining totally clueless about what any remainer actually believes, knows or wants.

The only people I have ever heard or read that think like that are the Remoaners telling us how Leavers think.

For all your white noise over the last few months, the ONLY thing I can take from all your posts has been your moaning about a people's vote. That's it.

You have been as interesting to interact with as that twat waving his board shouting STOP BREXIT. Ever seen an interview with him?

So if all this waste of money and time leaves you pleased because you got what you want, democracy undermined, then more fool you. Enjoy your short-lived victory, if that's how you see it.

But for all your bleating you really haven't got a clue. If you ever bothered to look beyond your own cosy little pink world you would see there are troubled times ahead, and soon you won't be quite so smug.

I’d say it’s you that remains clueless to it all, if you genuinely believe that some leave voters didn’t vote because of the reasons I’ve cited. You take all those out of the result & we would have stayed in the EU.

But that’s just not how it works is it?  You can’t ‘take out’ the votes of anyone because you have no idea how people arrived at their decision to vote for either side of the debate, or indeed to not vote at all.



But the whole point is that the vote was ultimately decided by the uninformed and stupid.

Is that  33,551,983 uninformed and stupid people
Or just the 17,410,742?
Or is it the 634,751 who, had they voted Remain would have produced a majority to leave of 1 vote?

And, if the vote was decided by those uninformed and stupid people, why do you think a second vote will be any different?

People who voted to remain knew what they were getting if we stayed, because it would be the status quo. And nobody knows what the result would be next time, and it’s it about changing it, but instead putting something to people which is clearer than the last referendum. I also think that if leave was to “win”, then they need to be somehow an option to choose between deal or no deal.

This argument is becoming has become pointless. Why wouldn’t the remain voters understanding of the status quo be flawed? Maybe they voted Remain because they have an EU cleaner, or partner and feared they would be sent home. Or maybe they fancied working in France. Or maybe they didn’t understand that the CAP is an appalling piece of state management, or that the CFP has destroyed our fishing industry. Maybe they can’t understand that the EEC that we joined has become something far more federal.
Maybe they didn’t understand that the EU is a fundamentally flawed and overly beauracratic organisation which gobbles up money.
Perhaps they didn’t understand or were ill-informed.


One of the best posts on this thread.

It will also mean that Aaron needs to explain why he wanted to remain in a bit more detail than because he love Status Quo.

This in turn will mean he won't be able to answer and he will slime off for a while until something more basic like yes or no is the only answer again.

Anyone in any doubt about how rational thinking other EU members think should watch the female German MEP stand up in the European Parliament and give it both barrels to Macron, Merkle, Junker, et al, about the appalling way the UK has been treated during this process and some of the Facts about who puts in what to the EU and how much we get out. Which in turn she understands why we want out and as a result of our endless giving over the years earns us a respectful exit.


You might find this guy interesting, he speaks intelligently in a similar vein to Henkel on this kind of topic:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/97c49240-336c-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5

edit: Actually maybe we were taking about a different German MEP, I’m not sure.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 11:51:01 AM by kukushkin88 » Logged
Sheriff Fatman
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« Reply #17095 on: April 05, 2019, 11:49:52 AM »

I missed the original airing on Monday, but watched the Laura Kuenssberg Brexit documentary on iPlayer.  Absolutely fascinating behind the scenes footage from the last 12 months or so, and some revealing insights, in particular the interviews with the Chief Whip and the snippets of footage from inside ERG meetings.

Well worth a watch for anyone interested enough in Brexit, which if you're reading this thread it suggests you are.
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« Reply #17096 on: April 05, 2019, 12:38:16 PM »

It's been quite interesting following the arguments about what people understood/meant when they voted almost 3 years ago.  One resource that might be easy to overlook is this thread itself, as digging back into the earlier pages contains all the discussion on this at the time.

I had a quick look through a few pages to try and find a relatively balanced pre-vote article showing that a vote to leave wasn't necessarily a vote for the hard Brexit lines on immigration, single market and customs union that some would argue.  Of the posts I read, this is probably the most balanced one in the thread, from the day before the referendum, linking to a Guardian article discussing various issues high on the agenda (the video snippets are interesting viewing too, especially with the benefit of hindsight).

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=65461.msg2141263#msg2141263

I'm sure there are all sorts of interpretations that people will take from the content, but the following quote is the one that is most pertinent to me, as it shows that nothing was cut and dried about the method of exit proposed at the time the vote took place.  "Moreover, leaving the EU may not reduce EU immigration. If Britain remains part of the single market, it will have to accept some freedom of movement."

I haven't yet started reading the posts from the day of the vote or the aftermath of the result, but it's a fascinating resource to look back on.

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« Reply #17097 on: April 05, 2019, 01:39:39 PM »

Regarding what were we voting on three years ago, this is very interesting:

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/1113547733300842497
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RED-DOG
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« Reply #17098 on: April 05, 2019, 02:17:50 PM »

We are never going to leave the EU are we?
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The older I get, the better I was.
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« Reply #17099 on: April 05, 2019, 02:27:30 PM »

We are never going to leave the EU are we?

We never were RDog Sad
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Ah! The element of surprise
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