The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

this is a really good read whichever side you are on

"The LSE’s Nicholas Barr explains why he will be voting to Remain in the EU referendum – citing a wide range of arguments about sovereignty, migration, international influence, regulation, democracy, trade and the single market to make his case. He concludes the economic and foreign policy costs of leaving are large, and the gains in sovereignty in today’s connected world are limited."

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/

[TightEnd]

wondering out loud

it is Labour voters who remain needs to turnout and vote to win

polls show tory voters are around 50-50 remain-leave at most

labour splits about 65-35 remain

why then does the remain camp put up david cameron, for example on this mornings Marr, to make the case time after time?

why wouldn't you put up (say) corbyn, tom watson, angela eagle, chris leslie, kier starmer, dan jarvis whoever you think influences most non-tory voters or undecideds?

i don't get the tactics of it.

like cameron or not its the same as anything, once you hear someone say the same thing for the 18th time you tune out.

i forgot john mcdonnell who is on now. include him in the list of "put him up more to get labour voters out to vote"

only one labour MP is in the top 10 of most media appearances on the EU, i have just read

it just doesn't make sense

[TightEnd]

Cameron has done 357 media/event appearances for Remain in 2016!

[doubleup]

To be brutally honest Doubleup and MintTrav are about as useful to the remain campaign as Eddie Izzard.  Doubleup squeals of concentration camps if the issue of organised European crime is brought up and Mint thinks his below par local curry house is empty because everyone is staying home cowering at the outcome of the EU referendum.

Get a grip.

I was discussing the issues.  I made a perfectly civil post comparing the present job market with the brexit job market and pointing out that it couldn't possibly "optimise the output of our country and max the GDP."

Argueboy hijacked that post and started rabbiting on about foreign criminals and Kmac-lite jumped in with Albanian child prostitution.

Anyway this thread is pointless so gl

I made a perfectly civil post adding in the part of the EU 'workforce' that also arrives to perform their criminal activities on mass scale around the big UK cities alongside the skilled/unskilled legit workers you stated.   Not sure how i hijacked your post and how my point isn't relevant?

You going to admit you were wrong and apologise for misreading my 'drivel' statement or just ignore it and run away like a coward with your tail behind your legs?

Only back to respond to your edited post.  I misread nothing.  Your post implied that EU immigrants were more likely to be criminals than simply looking for work.  I have nothing to apologise for.

[arbboy]

The idea that skilled migrants from non EU countries face obstacles whilst non-skilled EU migrants have free movement makes me anxious.

So the present position is that skilled and unskilled workers and career criminals with no intention to work and pay tax can come in from the EU unrestricted and the UK decides whether it wants to let skilled and unskilled workers enter from outside the EU.  

Leaving the single market would presumably mean that the UK could decide whether EU skilled and unskilled workersand career criminals with no intention to work and pay tax  could enter the country.  

What exactly would that change do to "optimise the output of our country and max the GDP."?

FYP

It would probably help to reduce the pressure on the Police in the UK for a start.

Where did my post imply that EU immigrants were MORE LIKELY to be criminals than looking for work? I mentioned no numbers at any time in my post.  I simply highlighted an additional third group of economic EU immigrants that are professional career criminals on top of the skilled and unskilled groups you had already mentioned.

It might be wise to read what is actually said rather than what you wish it says and/or what suits your argument.

[Karabiner]

"Cameron: Brexit may put pensions at risk." is The Observer's front page headline.

Doesn't this reek of desperation?

[nirvana]

Labour is only pro EU these days based on a party political thing from the time when the Tory rhetoric was so anti-EU.

The left wing, traditionally, has been more Int Soc than EU cabal - also an out vote would see the Tories in disarray. I'm sure the labour leadership wishes they could promote out

[TightEnd]

Labour is only pro EU these days based on a party political thing from the time when the Tory rhetoric was so anti-EU.

The left wing, traditionally, has been more Int Soc than EU cabal - also an out vote would see the Tories in disarray. I'm sure the labour leadership wishes they could promote out

an out vote potentially sees a change of prime minister. ok get that

but it potentially sees a righter wing prime minister. boris or brexiteer. don't get why labout would want that when they are unlikely to win in 2020

cameron is quite centrist, many policy positions have adopted blair type centre positions (as labour has vacated the centre). if he goes, some short term dislocation aside, the risk to labour voters is higher than it currently is

[TightEnd]

furthermore fixed term parliament, and its unlikely the conservative party (nothing if not pragmatic, likes winning elections) puts the next 3 years at risk by completely imploding

so cameron goes, you get boris/gove/leadsom whoever....

and labour want that?

[doubleup]

The idea that skilled migrants from non EU countries face obstacles whilst non-skilled EU migrants have free movement makes me anxious.

So the present position is that skilled and unskilled workers and career criminals with no intention to work and pay tax can come in from the EU unrestricted and the UK decides whether it wants to let skilled and unskilled workers enter from outside the EU.  

Leaving the single market would presumably mean that the UK could decide whether EU skilled and unskilled workersand career criminals with no intention to work and pay tax  could enter the country.  

What exactly would that change do to "optimise the output of our country and max the GDP."?

FYP

It would probably help to reduce the pressure on the Police in the UK for a start.

Where did my post imply that EU immigrants were MORE LIKELY to be criminals than looking for work? I mentioned no numbers at any time in my post.  I simply highlighted an additional third group of economic EU immigrants that are professional career criminals on top of the skilled and unskilled groups you had already mentioned.

It might be wise to read what is actually said rather than what you wish it says and/or what suits your argument.

The original post/debate was about the labour market and gdp and restrictions.  For your remark to be in anyway relevant to that debate, a significant number of EU immigrants would have to be criminals (for reasons that should be obvious).  You seem to be now clarifying that you were, in fact, just making a completely irrelevant point (to the original debate) that some immigrants are criminals.

Which brings me back to the pointlessness of this thread.


 

[TightEnd]

"Cameron: Brexit may put pensions at risk." is The Observer's front page headline.

Doesn't this reek of desperation?

well

a) the remain campaign has majored on "project fear" rather than any positives of membership.

William Hague said, quite astutely i thought "we are all eurosceptic, but i am eurosceptic and remain". they think that the voter won't respond to bigging up the single market so instead focuses on the risks

b) old people vote more than young people. old people are perceived as worried about things like pensions.

c) old people are more brexit than young people.

d) old people are conservative with a small c and worry more easily

e) brexit is assumed to mean some economic dislocation, conceded even by brexit leaders. sterling sells off, stock market uncertainty, threats to trade levels, economic activty etc....

f) the stock market falls, however temporarily

g) ergo, there is a threat to pension values (invested in stockmarkets, government bonds etc)....but

h) only really a threat if you are retiring during the spell of that economic and market dislocation. long term the market adjusts and there isn't much of a threat. Probably.

[TightEnd]

furthermore fixed term parliament, and its unlikely the conservative party (nothing if not pragmatic, likes winning elections) puts the next 3 years at risk by completely imploding

so cameron goes, you get boris/gove/leadsom whoever....

and labour want that?

and just now

Tom Watson to Labour voters: "Don’t use this vote to punish the Government... The consequences are almost worse than a general election."

[TightEnd]

Click to see full-size image.

[nirvana]

furthermore fixed term parliament, and its unlikely the conservative party (nothing if not pragmatic, likes winning elections) puts the next 3 years at risk by completely imploding

so cameron goes, you get boris/gove/leadsom whoever....

and labour want that?

Tbf, one Tory **** (politicians) is much like another

[RickBFA]

I think Cameron and the remain campaign are alienating the general public with the constant fear tactics.

There is something more fundamental that they are missing.

There is more to life than money.

Whether you like/agree with it or not, we historically have always had a different outlook as a nation than other EU countries. Maybe it's being an island state, but there is a difference in our mindset.

Where Cameron may loss this vote is over people's core instinct to self determination. People don't want to be told what to do by the establishment here or by the EU.

Perhaps this will override the potential financial downside. Leaving means we succeed or fail on our own merits, controlling our own economy and policy making.

You might disagree with this but I think it's the type of gut feeling that could see us vote leave.