Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[boldie]

Turns out it was faiths that started schools but those pesky Greeks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School#History_and_development_of_schools

[tikay]

Jeez, what  great day this Diary has had.

I chatted at length with Tom today about it, in fact, & the amount of "Gypsy-interest".

It's tough, I think, for Tom to realise what an eye-opener all this is to us Gorgers.

Must be hard for him to keep answering the questions, but fulfilling, too.

 

[gatso]

I don't think anyone said we wouldn't want to.

it's certainly the impression you give. nearly every other community on earth has embraced reading and writing for hundreds of years, there's no way that you guys haven't had the chance to do it before now

[kinboshi]

Which faith invented schools, then?

Jebus was the first teacher, I know that.

Judas was just a substitute.

I thought Jebus was a carpenter....or was that Karen?

[Jon MW]

Ding says

However no one seems to criticise parents sending their children to a Jewish school for example, to allow them to be raised within a Jewish environment as much as possible so I guess the Romany eduation is the same in theory, just not always in the classroom?

I just love this comment. I wish I had made it.

I have a MASSIVE problem with faith schools.  They're divisive, they label and separate children of different 'religion' into groups that causes hostility, emphasises differences but don't promote cross-cultural understanding.  Faith is perfectly fine, but there is no logical reason for faith to be brought into education unless some of the points I mentioned are actually the goals.  There is also the issue that some faith schools get better funding, or offer a higher standard of education but only to a specific section of society - which is discriminatory on grounds of religion obviously.

All imo of course.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and no doubt I am and you will) but surely if it hadn't been for faith schools then there wouldn't have been schools at all?

If it wasn't for the slave trade there wouldn't be any black people in America, doesn't mean it's still a good idea though.

edit; just to clarify I was being just a tad facetious

clarification noted - but the comparison isn't valid. The slave trade was about exploitation, the development of schools was altruistic.

Not sure about that last part TBH. the beginning of education is not an area of history that I'm intimately familiar with but it seems more likely to me that it was about ensuring people follow the right rules and general indoctrination than an altruistic "everybody should have the right to learn" idea.

Interesting thought though..will have to look into it. Food for thought and all that.

Christian religious charity in England (and possibly the same with others but don't know) is a bit more complicated than either 'altruism' or 'indoctrination' (although indoctrination has never really been a big feature of Christian faith schools - more of an accidental byproduct than an aim).

Historically, religiously based altruism can be just because the person is nice, but it could also be because being nice provides spiritual cleansing - mostly it's been seen as somewhere along the scale between 'being good because you are good' and 'being good because you want to go to Heaven and not Hell', it's sometimes too easy to be cynical about motivations which weren't necessarily (or at least wholly) the case.

One thing that Boshi in particular seems to miss is that 'faith schools' is an all-encompassing term covering a lot of variation.

Some of them I would have an issue with the fact that they do promote segregation and indoctrination and are discriminatory in their intake - but in others the element of faith involves having a school priest (serving as a school counsellor) and that registration as well as assemblies start with prayer - a fairly innocuous form of indoctrination I would have thought.

[boldie]

Which faith invented schools, then?

Jebus was the first teacher, I know that.

Judas was just a substitute.

I thought Jebus was a carpenter....or was that Karen?

That was Karen..Jebus was never a carpenter though he did like to play with wood...alledgedly

[boldie]

Jeez, what  great day this Diary has had.

I chatted at length with Tom today about it, in fact, & the amount of "Gypsy-interest".

It's tough, I think, for Tom to realise what an eye-opener all this is to us Gorgers.

Must be hard for him to keep answering the questions, but fulfilling, too.

 

I think we're quite lucky to have Mr Red on blonde just because of the man he is. He is extremely patient, has superb writing skills and loads of knowledge so can explain everything very clearly and yet can see how things might appear to an outsider. (Added to that he's a top bloke obv)

Imagine having had the internet and a forum such as this in the 1950s and 60s where you mainly had 3k white people and a black person with the same attitude as Tom who just patiently explained that racism is a massive problem and told the stories of "his people's" history and his own experiences soo well. Taking the time to answer every question and even appreciating a question to which the answer, to him, might seem blindingly obvious.
Might have changed a lot of attitudes a hell of a lot earlier, that.


Analogy might not work or might just not be properly explained...but you get the idea.

[tikay]

Jeez, what  great day this Diary has had.

I chatted at length with Tom today about it, in fact, & the amount of "Gypsy-interest".

It's tough, I think, for Tom to realise what an eye-opener all this is to us Gorgers.

Must be hard for him to keep answering the questions, but fulfilling, too.

 

I think we're quite lucky to have Mr Red on blonde just because of the man he is. He is extremely patient, has superb writing skills and loads of knowledge so can explain everything very clearly and yet can see how things might appear to an outsider. (Added to that he's a top bloke obv)

Imagine having had the internet and a forum such as this in the 1950s and 60s where you mainly had 3k white people and a black person with the same attitude as Tom who just patiently explained that racism is a massive problem and told the stories of "his people's" history and his own experiences soo well. Taking the time to answer every question and even appreciating a question to which the answer, to him, might seem blindingly obvious.
Might have changed a lot of attitudes a hell of a lot earlier, that.


Analogy might not work or might just not be properly explained...but you get the idea.

You could extend the analogy, & get the Moles to state their case, they get discriminated against, too. It's their homeland, after all, they were there first.

[boldie]

Jeez, what  great day this Diary has had.

I chatted at length with Tom today about it, in fact, & the amount of "Gypsy-interest".

It's tough, I think, for Tom to realise what an eye-opener all this is to us Gorgers.

Must be hard for him to keep answering the questions, but fulfilling, too.

 

I think we're quite lucky to have Mr Red on blonde just because of the man he is. He is extremely patient, has superb writing skills and loads of knowledge so can explain everything very clearly and yet can see how things might appear to an outsider. (Added to that he's a top bloke obv)

Imagine having had the internet and a forum such as this in the 1950s and 60s where you mainly had 3k white people and a black person with the same attitude as Tom who just patiently explained that racism is a massive problem and told the stories of "his people's" history and his own experiences soo well. Taking the time to answer every question and even appreciating a question to which the answer, to him, might seem blindingly obvious.
Might have changed a lot of attitudes a hell of a lot earlier, that.


Analogy might not work or might just not be properly explained...but you get the idea.

You could extend the analogy, & get the Moles to state their case, they get discriminated against, too. It's their homeland, after all, they were there first.

True, some moles are definitely being very cruelly treated. I reckon the mole tormentors and killers should be locked up.

[tikay]

Jeez, what  great day this Diary has had.

I chatted at length with Tom today about it, in fact, & the amount of "Gypsy-interest".

It's tough, I think, for Tom to realise what an eye-opener all this is to us Gorgers.

Must be hard for him to keep answering the questions, but fulfilling, too.

 

I think we're quite lucky to have Mr Red on blonde just because of the man he is. He is extremely patient, has superb writing skills and loads of knowledge so can explain everything very clearly and yet can see how things might appear to an outsider. (Added to that he's a top bloke obv)

Imagine having had the internet and a forum such as this in the 1950s and 60s where you mainly had 3k white people and a black person with the same attitude as Tom who just patiently explained that racism is a massive problem and told the stories of "his people's" history and his own experiences soo well. Taking the time to answer every question and even appreciating a question to which the answer, to him, might seem blindingly obvious.
Might have changed a lot of attitudes a hell of a lot earlier, that.


Analogy might not work or might just not be properly explained...but you get the idea.

You could extend the analogy, & get the Moles to state their case, they get discriminated against, too. It's their homeland, after all, they were there first.

True, some moles are definitely being very cruelly treated. I reckon the mole tormentors and killers should be locked up.

Ahem, capital "M", please. Moles.

[ripple11]

Ding says

However no one seems to criticise parents sending their children to a Jewish school for example, to allow them to be raised within a Jewish environment as much as possible so I guess the Romany eduation is the same in theory, just not always in the classroom?

I just love this comment. I wish I had made it.

I have a MASSIVE problem with faith schools.  They're divisive, they label and separate children of different 'religion' into groups that causes hostility, emphasises differences but don't promote cross-cultural understanding.  Faith is perfectly fine, but there is no logical reason for faith to be brought into education unless some of the points I mentioned are actually the goals.  There is also the issue that some faith schools get better funding, or offer a higher standard of education but only to a specific section of society - which is discriminatory on grounds of religion obviously.

All imo of course.

I went to a school run by a Catholic religious order of brothers.
Yes the majority of pupils were Catholic, but a fair minority(including me) were everything else, so to speak,... C of E, Jewish, Muslim ,Hindu etc.
I never felt it was a problem in any way,...we were kids growing up, just learning and playing as friends.
The school treated everyone the same,looking after us and giving us the best education for life they could.

[Woodsey]

Ding says

However no one seems to criticise parents sending their children to a Jewish school for example, to allow them to be raised within a Jewish environment as much as possible so I guess the Romany eduation is the same in theory, just not always in the classroom?

I just love this comment. I wish I had made it.

I have a MASSIVE problem with faith schools.  They're divisive, they label and separate children of different 'religion' into groups that causes hostility, emphasises differences but don't promote cross-cultural understanding.  Faith is perfectly fine, but there is no logical reason for faith to be brought into education unless some of the points I mentioned are actually the goals.  There is also the issue that some faith schools get better funding, or offer a higher standard of education but only to a specific section of society - which is discriminatory on grounds of religion obviously.

All imo of course.

I went to a school run by a Catholic religious order of brothers.
Yes the majority of pupils were Catholic, but a fair minority(including me) were everything else, so to speak,... C of E, Jewish, Muslim ,Hindu etc.
I never felt it was a problem in any way,...we were kids growing up, just learning and playing as friends.
The school treated everyone the same,looking after us and giving us the best education for life they could.

Same, I went to a boarding school run by a catholic monastery and I had pretty much the same experience. Whether people like the religious aspect or not I felt it was pretty good at teaching people right from wrong as a minimum, which is a pretty good thing imo.

[thetank]

We take them out of mainstream education at an age when we know that they are are most susceptible to peer pressure to experiment with in things like binge-drinking, drug use and under age sex.

difficult to make this comment without sounding like I'm trying to be funny but I would hate to have gone through my teen years without any of these things. don't think any of them have done me any harm

Toasty life being middle class innit.

Apparently some of the problems associated with the lower classes and too much drink/drunks/sex include vandalism, theft, violent crime, anti-social behaviour, death by various misadventures like overdosing or that advert where the lad falls of the scaffolding, sexually transmitted infections, teenage pregnancys, high rates of abortion , good old fashioned junkiedom, loads of litter everywhere, fking seagulls, being sick on your big fat wedding dress, freezing to death waiting for a taxi, higher rates of divorce with the resultant breakdown of the family and pissing your money away by texting babestation at 3am.

[kinboshi]

Ding says

However no one seems to criticise parents sending their children to a Jewish school for example, to allow them to be raised within a Jewish environment as much as possible so I guess the Romany eduation is the same in theory, just not always in the classroom?

I just love this comment. I wish I had made it.

I have a MASSIVE problem with faith schools.  They're divisive, they label and separate children of different 'religion' into groups that causes hostility, emphasises differences but don't promote cross-cultural understanding.  Faith is perfectly fine, but there is no logical reason for faith to be brought into education unless some of the points I mentioned are actually the goals.  There is also the issue that some faith schools get better funding, or offer a higher standard of education but only to a specific section of society - which is discriminatory on grounds of religion obviously.

All imo of course.

I went to a school run by a Catholic religious order of brothers.
Yes the majority of pupils were Catholic, but a fair minority(including me) were everything else, so to speak,... C of E, Jewish, Muslim ,Hindu etc.
I never felt it was a problem in any way,...we were kids growing up, just learning and playing as friends.
The school treated everyone the same,looking after us and giving us the best education for life they could.

I will post a longer post on this when I get a chance.

Just one point for now. You say the children were catholic, or hindu, or whatever - but why were they labeled such? Before they go to school kids play with other kids largely oblivious to the differences of their parents' religion, it's only when their differences are institutionalised that the differences become apparent and are then reinforced. If this was a benign and inconsequential part of these children's lives it wouldn't be an issue. But its effects are far more malignant.

I'll post properly over the weekend when I'm on my laptop rather than my phone. Interesting topic though.

[thetank]

Gypsies would never allow homosexual behaviour in public. That may seem intolerant, but it has been that way for hundreds of years. When other societies were out "Gay bashing" or sending homosexuals to prison, we were quietly ignoring them. 

This is such a yuck attitude and sad to see, I would argue that it seems intolerant because it is intolerant. The worst part being that this paragraph reads as if you're very satisfied with the current position.

I've been mollified by subsequent posts saying things like I accept that it is an unenlightened attitude. and I really do try not to slip into the trap of defending when I should be simply explaining.

Really is a stunning thread this one.