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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 56

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 1329302 times)
kukushkin88
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« Reply #17025 on: March 30, 2019, 10:28:44 PM »

So lets have a long extension with EU conditions and EU elections ......or a "no deal" if one of the EU 27 can't stand it any more! 

Both Tories and Labour agree with the WA and although not perfect, given where we are, it make sense to accept it so the country can move forward to the next more important phase !

If Labour agreed with the Withdrawal Agreement surely they'd have supported it today?  Somewhat puzzled as to how you can make this statement, based on the available evidence, as there's been absolutely no indication of this to date.



 They accept the WA.......they only want to change the PD.  I didn't hear a word against it yesterday from Labour MP's.

“We’ve been very clear, that it is done and dusted, we have never said we would seek to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement… We have to accept what the European Union is saying about the Withdrawal Agreement, and has consistently said for six months”.

John Healey Shadow Minister

“I certainly accept the proposition that the EU has said that the Withdrawal Agreement is not for reopening at any stage, and it has resisted that for month after month from the Government.”
Kier Starmer


“The Labour leader says that while the Prime Minister is focused on negotiating changes to the backstop, she needs to enshrine five changes to the Political Declaration in law to secure Labour support for a sensible deal that can bring the country together”.

Corbyn's letter to May...no mention of the WA.


They played party politics yesterday, instead of helping to move Brexit, which they support, forward at this crucial stage. Govt offered Parliament a vote on the PD as per amendment, and surely a softer brexit/PD is going to be indicated next week.

I see Denis Skinner abstained yesterday...my new hero  Smiley


Dennis is a great guy obvs. Nothing in those quotes says anybody agrees to leaving under the WA.
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Sheriff Fatman
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« Reply #17026 on: March 30, 2019, 11:05:39 PM »

So lets have a long extension with EU conditions and EU elections ......or a "no deal" if one of the EU 27 can't stand it any more! 

Both Tories and Labour agree with the WA and although not perfect, given where we are, it make sense to accept it so the country can move forward to the next more important phase !

If Labour agreed with the Withdrawal Agreement surely they'd have supported it today?  Somewhat puzzled as to how you can make this statement, based on the available evidence, as there's been absolutely no indication of this to date.



 They accept the WA.......they only want to change the PD.  I didn't hear a word against it yesterday from Labour MP's.

“We’ve been very clear, that it is done and dusted, we have never said we would seek to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement… We have to accept what the European Union is saying about the Withdrawal Agreement, and has consistently said for six months”.

John Healey Shadow Minister

“I certainly accept the proposition that the EU has said that the Withdrawal Agreement is not for reopening at any stage, and it has resisted that for month after month from the Government.”
Kier Starmer


“The Labour leader says that while the Prime Minister is focused on negotiating changes to the backstop, she needs to enshrine five changes to the Political Declaration in law to secure Labour support for a sensible deal that can bring the country together”.

Corbyn's letter to May...no mention of the WA.


They played party politics yesterday, instead of helping to move Brexit, which they support, forward at this crucial stage. Govt offered Parliament a vote on the PD as per amendment, and surely a softer brexit/PD is going to be indicated next week.

I see Denis Skinner abstained yesterday...my new hero  Smiley


Dennis is a great guy obvs. Nothing in those quotes says anybody agrees to leaving under the WA.

kukushikin beat me to this point.  The quotes are just acknowledging what we've all know for months - that the WA isn't open for renegotiation within this package.  There's no implied agreement to it.

It's potentially available to be used, attached to any kind of agreed exit deal, and under Corbyn's 'unicorn' plan of negotiating an alternative deal within weeks would literally be the only way it could happen.  Given that it contains the backstop within it, Labour would arguably be the only party who could agree a deal which utilised it and obtained a majority in the HoC, as they wouldn't be reliant on the DUP votes to achieve this.  Even under that scenario, I don't see how the maths would work as it would need Labour plus all opposition parties and independents, less the DUP, plus a number of non-ERG Tories to vote for it.

Under a scenario where there's either a long delay or a revocation, and a change of negotiator from Theresa May, I could envisage the WA being amended.  If it was needed to support an exit with a permanent customs union, for example, there'd be no need for a backstop.
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« Reply #17027 on: March 30, 2019, 11:27:09 PM »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uuh8vk3-x60

For a new and unlikely Dennis fan. Please listen to it all.
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Sheriff Fatman
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« Reply #17028 on: April 01, 2019, 01:54:45 PM »

The Tory party is not typically the place you'd look to find common sense on a No Deal exit, but Rory Stewart's article on it is a reasonably balanced viewpoint on some of the fundamental issues with it, not least the fact that it most likely will still cost us the £39bn exit fee if we want a trade agreement with the EU afterwards.  This is consistent with information I've read from other sources, but seems to be conveniently overlooked by those pushing for no deal.

http://www.rorystewart.co.uk/no-deal/
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« Reply #17029 on: April 01, 2019, 03:11:35 PM »

Does Norway + or customs union allow free movement?
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« Reply #17030 on: April 01, 2019, 05:15:12 PM »

The Tory party is not typically the place you'd look to find common sense on a No Deal exit, but Rory Stewart's article on it is a reasonably balanced viewpoint on some of the fundamental issues with it, not least the fact that it most likely will still cost us the £39bn exit fee if we want a trade agreement with the EU afterwards.  This is consistent with information I've read from other sources, but seems to be conveniently overlooked by those pushing for no deal.

http://www.rorystewart.co.uk/no-deal/

This article (as with many others) seems to blame everything on the UK. Aren't the rest of the EU, or Brussels as it's also known at least partly to blame for not reaching a deal?

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« Reply #17031 on: April 01, 2019, 05:31:43 PM »

The Tory party is not typically the place you'd look to find common sense on a No Deal exit, but Rory Stewart's article on it is a reasonably balanced viewpoint on some of the fundamental issues with it, not least the fact that it most likely will still cost us the £39bn exit fee if we want a trade agreement with the EU afterwards.  This is consistent with information I've read from other sources, but seems to be conveniently overlooked by those pushing for no deal.

http://www.rorystewart.co.uk/no-deal/

This article (as with many others) seems to blame everything on the UK. Aren't the rest of the EU, or Brussels as it's also known at least partly to blame for not reaching a deal?



If I were trying to sell you my very ordinary shoes and you offered me £50 but I asked for 50000 who's fault would it be that we failed to deal?
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« Reply #17032 on: April 01, 2019, 05:33:19 PM »

Or what if I only asked for £150 but you had 27 pairs of shoes already?
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #17033 on: April 01, 2019, 06:07:14 PM »

The Tory party is not typically the place you'd look to find common sense on a No Deal exit, but Rory Stewart's article on it is a reasonably balanced viewpoint on some of the fundamental issues with it, not least the fact that it most likely will still cost us the £39bn exit fee if we want a trade agreement with the EU afterwards.  This is consistent with information I've read from other sources, but seems to be conveniently overlooked by those pushing for no deal.

http://www.rorystewart.co.uk/no-deal/

This article (as with many others) seems to blame everything on the UK. Aren't the rest of the EU, or Brussels as it's also known at least partly to blame for not reaching a deal?


I’m not sure what the EU could have differently. They have just insisted that if you leave the EU, you lose the benefits being in the EU. That was always going to be devastating to the UK but surely no one ever thought we’d leave and keep the benefits?
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« Reply #17034 on: April 01, 2019, 07:03:44 PM »

Does Norway + or customs union allow free movement?

The Common Market 2.0 option , which is very similar, does. In theory it does have an "emergency break" on free movement in special circumstances.

This option has the backing of SNP and alot of Labour tonight, so should fair well.

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« Reply #17035 on: April 01, 2019, 07:06:40 PM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.

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« Reply #17036 on: April 01, 2019, 07:21:11 PM »

Don't get me wrong, it suits my POV, but as Bercow unfairly chosen soft Brexit options for tonight's vote?
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« Reply #17037 on: April 01, 2019, 08:52:25 PM »

Don't get me wrong, it suits my POV, but as Bercow unfairly chosen soft Brexit options for tonight's vote?

Yes, he really has.

Can't complain as like you it suits my POV but tbh I don't like any of the options. Whats the point of Common Market 2.0? Basically give up our seat at the table for what?

At the end of the day if we stop freedom of movement then by law that means hard borders in Ireland. That's never happening so freedom of movement isn't getting stopped. Might as well just stay in then.
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« Reply #17038 on: April 01, 2019, 09:12:00 PM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.



I missed the referendum where people had so much choice - didn't people just vote to leave?
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« Reply #17039 on: April 01, 2019, 10:57:30 PM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.



I missed the referendum where people had so much choice - didn't people just vote to leave?

You think people that voted to leave wanted to retain EU controls/law making?

They voted to leave and that clearly involved ending freedom of movement. The polls indicated that was what people wanted and the main stream parties adopted that policy. There really wasn’t any grey area in that respect.

Every person that voted leave that I have spoken to was clear that us taking control was what they wanted.

The idea that free movement of people should be an option beggars belief.

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