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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180137 times)
kukushkin88
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« Reply #17025 on: April 01, 2019, 06:07:14 PM »

The Tory party is not typically the place you'd look to find common sense on a No Deal exit, but Rory Stewart's article on it is a reasonably balanced viewpoint on some of the fundamental issues with it, not least the fact that it most likely will still cost us the £39bn exit fee if we want a trade agreement with the EU afterwards.  This is consistent with information I've read from other sources, but seems to be conveniently overlooked by those pushing for no deal.

http://www.rorystewart.co.uk/no-deal/

This article (as with many others) seems to blame everything on the UK. Aren't the rest of the EU, or Brussels as it's also known at least partly to blame for not reaching a deal?


I’m not sure what the EU could have differently. They have just insisted that if you leave the EU, you lose the benefits being in the EU. That was always going to be devastating to the UK but surely no one ever thought we’d leave and keep the benefits?
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ripple11
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« Reply #17026 on: April 01, 2019, 07:03:44 PM »

Does Norway + or customs union allow free movement?

The Common Market 2.0 option , which is very similar, does. In theory it does have an "emergency break" on free movement in special circumstances.

This option has the backing of SNP and alot of Labour tonight, so should fair well.

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RickBFA
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« Reply #17027 on: April 01, 2019, 07:06:40 PM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.

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« Reply #17028 on: April 01, 2019, 07:21:11 PM »

Don't get me wrong, it suits my POV, but as Bercow unfairly chosen soft Brexit options for tonight's vote?
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KarmaDope
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« Reply #17029 on: April 01, 2019, 08:52:25 PM »

Don't get me wrong, it suits my POV, but as Bercow unfairly chosen soft Brexit options for tonight's vote?

Yes, he really has.

Can't complain as like you it suits my POV but tbh I don't like any of the options. Whats the point of Common Market 2.0? Basically give up our seat at the table for what?

At the end of the day if we stop freedom of movement then by law that means hard borders in Ireland. That's never happening so freedom of movement isn't getting stopped. Might as well just stay in then.
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Jon MW
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« Reply #17030 on: April 01, 2019, 09:12:00 PM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.



I missed the referendum where people had so much choice - didn't people just vote to leave?
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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RickBFA
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« Reply #17031 on: April 01, 2019, 10:57:30 PM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.



I missed the referendum where people had so much choice - didn't people just vote to leave?

You think people that voted to leave wanted to retain EU controls/law making?

They voted to leave and that clearly involved ending freedom of movement. The polls indicated that was what people wanted and the main stream parties adopted that policy. There really wasn’t any grey area in that respect.

Every person that voted leave that I have spoken to was clear that us taking control was what they wanted.

The idea that free movement of people should be an option beggars belief.

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Jon MW
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« Reply #17032 on: April 02, 2019, 05:58:20 AM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.



I missed the referendum where people had so much choice - didn't people just vote to leave?

You think people that voted to leave wanted to retain EU controls/law making?

They voted to leave and that clearly involved ending freedom of movement. The polls indicated that was what people wanted and the main stream parties adopted that policy. There really wasn’t any grey area in that respect.

Every person that voted leave that I have spoken to was clear that us taking control was what they wanted.

The idea that free movement of people should be an option beggars belief.



Many people, such as Jacob Rees-Mogg (for example) have long had a problem with Parliamentary sovereignty being replaced by EU sovereignty - that's why a lot of people voted leave.

I just had a look at opinion polls - they suggest that half* of those who voted for leave did so because of immigration.

So if less than 9 million people have a problem with freedom of movement in the EU and well over 50 million people don't - to me that doesn't seem too unreasonable for it to be an option.


*about 48% mentioned it - only about a third said it was the important reason.
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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« Reply #17033 on: April 02, 2019, 08:00:18 AM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.



I missed the referendum where people had so much choice - didn't people just vote to leave?

You think people that voted to leave wanted to retain EU controls/law making?

They voted to leave and that clearly involved ending freedom of movement. The polls indicated that was what people wanted and the main stream parties adopted that policy. There really wasn’t any grey area in that respect.

Every person that voted leave that I have spoken to was clear that us taking control was what they wanted.

The idea that free movement of people should be an option beggars belief.



Many people, such as Jacob Rees-Mogg (for example) have long had a problem with Parliamentary sovereignty being replaced by EU sovereignty - that's why a lot of people voted leave.

I just had a look at opinion polls - they suggest that half* of those who voted for leave did so because of immigration.

So if less than 9 million people have a problem with freedom of movement in the EU and well over 50 million people don't - to me that doesn't seem too unreasonable for it to be an option.


*about 48% mentioned it - only about a third said it was the important reason.

Opinion polls show that around 70% of the whole population think that immigration has been too high and should be reduced/controlled.

That’s the reason why both parties adopted policies to end unlimited freedom of movement.

I have no problem with controlled immigration on our terms for the good of our country. Uncontrolled freedom of movement is not what people want and should not be an option for MPs in Brexit votes.
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POWWWWWWWW
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« Reply #17034 on: April 02, 2019, 08:17:14 AM »

When people mention polls be back up their arguement can we get a link or reference to the poll? It completely invalidates using it as evidence if you don’t.
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Archer
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« Reply #17035 on: April 02, 2019, 09:12:12 AM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.



I missed the referendum where people had so much choice - didn't people just vote to leave?

You think people that voted to leave wanted to retain EU controls/law making?

They voted to leave and that clearly involved ending freedom of movement. The polls indicated that was what people wanted and the main stream parties adopted that policy. There really wasn’t any grey area in that respect.

Every person that voted leave that I have spoken to was clear that us taking control was what they wanted.

The idea that free movement of people should be an option beggars belief.



Many people, such as Jacob Rees-Mogg (for example) have long had a problem with Parliamentary sovereignty being replaced by EU sovereignty - that's why a lot of people voted leave.

I just had a look at opinion polls - they suggest that half* of those who voted for leave did so because of immigration.

So if less than 9 million people have a problem with freedom of movement in the EU and well over 50 million people don't - to me that doesn't seem too unreasonable for it to be an option.


*about 48% mentioned it - only about a third said it was the important reason.

Opinion polls show that around 70% of the whole population think that immigration has been too high and should be reduced/controlled.

That’s the reason why both parties adopted policies to end unlimited freedom of movement.

I have no problem with controlled immigration on our terms for the good of our country. Uncontrolled freedom of movement is not what people want and should not be an option for MPs in Brexit votes.

Disagree in the sense that is a simplistic gross exaggeration.

 Click to see full-size image.



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Jon MW
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« Reply #17036 on: April 02, 2019, 09:32:53 AM »

When people mention polls be back up their arguement can we get a link or reference to the poll? It completely invalidates using it as evidence if you don’t.

Of course - wikipedia report on it rather than directly but I'd assume the editors would fix it if it didn't match

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_vote_in_favour_of_Brexit#Immigration
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Jon "the British cowboy" Woodfield

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Sheriff Fatman
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« Reply #17037 on: April 02, 2019, 11:20:14 AM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.



Your recollection is very different to mine in terms of the type of Brexit I anticipated at the referendum.  I remember plenty of discussion prior to the vote that the referendum didn't specify anything about the type of exit that we'd undertake, and that this was a significant weakness of it.

That has certainly proved to be the case.
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« Reply #17038 on: April 02, 2019, 11:56:20 AM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.



I missed the referendum where people had so much choice - didn't people just vote to leave?

You think people that voted to leave wanted to retain EU controls/law making?

They voted to leave and that clearly involved ending freedom of movement. The polls indicated that was what people wanted and the main stream parties adopted that policy. There really wasn’t any grey area in that respect.

Every person that voted leave that I have spoken to was clear that us taking control was what they wanted.

The idea that free movement of people should be an option beggars belief.



Many people, such as Jacob Rees-Mogg (for example) have long had a problem with Parliamentary sovereignty being replaced by EU sovereignty - that's why a lot of people voted leave.

I just had a look at opinion polls - they suggest that half* of those who voted for leave did so because of immigration.

So if less than 9 million people have a problem with freedom of movement in the EU and well over 50 million people don't - to me that doesn't seem too unreasonable for it to be an option.


*about 48% mentioned it - only about a third said it was the important reason.

Opinion polls show that around 70% of the whole population think that immigration has been too high and should be reduced/controlled.

That’s the reason why both parties adopted policies to end unlimited freedom of movement.

I have no problem with controlled immigration on our terms for the good of our country. Uncontrolled freedom of movement is not what people want and should not be an option for MPs in Brexit votes.

There's no such thing as uncontrolled freedom of movement.
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RED-DOG
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« Reply #17039 on: April 02, 2019, 12:04:21 PM »

By any reasonable measure, it is pretty outrageous that MP’s could back a Norway style deal.

Freedom of movement still allowed? Really Huh??

There is no regard in Parliament for the will of the people - people voted for Brexit for control of our own destiny, our own borders, our own laws.

No one voted for Brexit expecting a deal to involve continued freedom of movement, in fact, both main parties agreed to end it.

As usual it’s the political elite saying fuck you to voters. We’ll do what we want, not what you voted for.



I missed the referendum where people had so much choice - didn't people just vote to leave?

You think people that voted to leave wanted to retain EU controls/law making?

They voted to leave and that clearly involved ending freedom of movement. The polls indicated that was what people wanted and the main stream parties adopted that policy. There really wasn’t any grey area in that respect.

Every person that voted leave that I have spoken to was clear that us taking control was what they wanted.

The idea that free movement of people should be an option beggars belief.



Many people, such as Jacob Rees-Mogg (for example) have long had a problem with Parliamentary sovereignty being replaced by EU sovereignty - that's why a lot of people voted leave.

I just had a look at opinion polls - they suggest that half* of those who voted for leave did so because of immigration.

So if less than 9 million people have a problem with freedom of movement in the EU and well over 50 million people don't - to me that doesn't seem too unreasonable for it to be an option.


*about 48% mentioned it - only about a third said it was the important reason.

Opinion polls show that around 70% of the whole population think that immigration has been too high and should be reduced/controlled.

That’s the reason why both parties adopted policies to end unlimited freedom of movement.

I have no problem with controlled immigration on our terms for the good of our country. Uncontrolled freedom of movement is not what people want and should not be an option for MPs in Brexit votes.

There's no such thing as uncontrolled freedom of movement.


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