The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[marcro]

The big problem here is that the EU cannot continue without our money (their cost base is very high).  There is no easy way for them to replace the money we have been contributing other than sticking it to us.  We were their cash cow and they want this to continue.

[StuartHopkin]

TUE: May loses vote (but with more votes)
WED: Hoc votes against no deal
Thur: HOC vote to extend A50

AFTER: May tries to extend A50, EU say no

That's my personal favourite

[kukushkin88]

The big problem here is that the EU cannot continue without our money (their cost base is very high).  There is no easy way for them to replace the money we have been contributing other than sticking it to us.  We were their cash cow and they want this to continue.

“Cannot continue without our money” seems to be fundamentally untrue.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

[nirvana]

TUE: May loses vote (but with more votes)
WED: Hoc votes against no deal
Thur: HOC vote to extend A50

AFTER: May tries to extend A50, EU say no

That's my personal favourite

i would love that too.

Think Ripple's scenario, much as it is about the most pointless outcome to the whole affair, is quite likely to transpire

[DMorgan]

So, what do you think (not want) will happen next week?

TUE: May offers her immediate resignation to get the deal through. Brexiteers hold their nose and vote for it to get a shot at Boris/Gove vs Javid/Hunt in the final round of the leadership contest and winning a landslide amongst the Tory membership.

If the deal doesn't get through I think it goes as Aaron described and TMay calls for a GE.

TMay going for Norway/soft brexit options is the least likely of all options imo, she's the truest of true blues, met her husband at a party dinner, its literally her life. Soft brexit ruptures the party like nothing else, maybe terrible read but I think she'll fall on her sword for her deal before she'd countenance EEA.

[aaron1867]

What I don’t get here is that if we choose to vote against no deal, but also vote against an extension, we still leave with no deal?

I also think a GE will be called - But unless she wins a lot bigger majority, then what does it solve?

At what point do we just revoke leaving, because we can’t solve it. And whilst the brexiters May hate a second vote, it may genuinely be the only way to avoid Brexit being stopped.

[BigAdz]

What I don’t get here is that if we choose to vote against no deal, but also vote against an extension, we still leave with no deal?

I also think a GE will be called - But unless she wins a lot bigger majority, then what does it solve?

At what point do we just revoke leaving, because we can’t solve it. And whilst the brexiters May hate a second vote, it may genuinely be the only way to avoid Brexit being stopped.

You keep talking like a second ref will solve everything.

What if the result is exactly the same maestro?

[aaron1867]

What I don’t get here is that if we choose to vote against no deal, but also vote against an extension, we still leave with no deal?

I also think a GE will be called - But unless she wins a lot bigger majority, then what does it solve?

At what point do we just revoke leaving, because we can’t solve it. And whilst the brexiters May hate a second vote, it may genuinely be the only way to avoid Brexit being stopped.

You keep talking like a second ref will solve everything.

What if the result is exactly the same maestro?

It seems the best option to me. Then the people can overrule MP’s to finally process this ‘deal’ or choose to remain as they know now what Brexit looks like. This is the only way to get on with it.

Otherwise you have 650 MP’s who’ll never agree to vote for a deal. Not enough time. Whilst all the time a GE, may not have the desired result.

[BigAdz]

What I don’t get here is that if we choose to vote against no deal, but also vote against an extension, we still leave with no deal?

I also think a GE will be called - But unless she wins a lot bigger majority, then what does it solve?

At what point do we just revoke leaving, because we can’t solve it. And whilst the brexiters May hate a second vote, it may genuinely be the only way to avoid Brexit being stopped.

You keep talking like a second ref will solve everything.

What if the result is exactly the same maestro?

It seems the best option to me. Then the people can overrule MP’s to finally process this ‘deal’ or choose to remain as they know now what Brexit looks like. This is the only way to get on with it.

Otherwise you have 650 MP’s who’ll never agree to vote for a deal. Not enough time. Whilst all the time a GE, may not have the desired result.

This doesn't answer a thing though does it?

At the moment they aren't not agreeing to a deal, they are pretty much not agreeing to no deal, which is where we are heading.

So another ref gets passed and you then agree that we all agree to "no deal", is that what I understand you mean?

[DMorgan]

What I don’t get here is that if we choose to vote against no deal, but also vote against an extension, we still leave with no deal?

I also think a GE will be called - But unless she wins a lot bigger majority, then what does it solve?

At what point do we just revoke leaving, because we can’t solve it. And whilst the brexiters May hate a second vote, it may genuinely be the only way to avoid Brexit being stopped.

Any result where the DUP aren't required to prop up the government solves the Irish border customs checks issue. We can leave the single market and customs union have a customs border down the Irish Sea without endangering the peace in NI.

You keep talking like a second ref will solve everything.

What if the result is exactly the same maestro?

This assumes that there wold be another open ended question on the ballot paper which would be a pretty absurd thing to do given where we are. A second vote would be some combination of Remain/Mays Deal/No Deal all of which are pretty explicit instructions.

[MANTIS01]

Used to be the case that MPs were elected by the public to act as public servants and carry out the will of the people

Thought that was democracy

Now we have MPs refusing to exercise the will of the people, seemingly about to force another vote upon the people, squeezing the elected government to bend to their will

Not sure what that is but doesn’t look like democracy to me.

Remain might celebrate this turn of events but it’s a pretty dangerous road to travel, regards democracy, freedom and overall public engagement in politics. But as long as the minority get what they want...

[aaron1867]

What I don’t get here is that if we choose to vote against no deal, but also vote against an extension, we still leave with no deal?

I also think a GE will be called - But unless she wins a lot bigger majority, then what does it solve?

At what point do we just revoke leaving, because we can’t solve it. And whilst the brexiters May hate a second vote, it may genuinely be the only way to avoid Brexit being stopped.

You keep talking like a second ref will solve everything.

What if the result is exactly the same maestro?

It seems the best option to me. Then the people can overrule MP’s to finally process this ‘deal’ or choose to remain as they know now what Brexit looks like. This is the only way to get on with it.

Otherwise you have 650 MP’s who’ll never agree to vote for a deal. Not enough time. Whilst all the time a GE, may not have the desired result.

This doesn't answer a thing though does it?

At the moment they aren't not agreeing to a deal, they are pretty much not agreeing to no deal, which is where we are heading.

So another ref gets passed and you then agree that we all agree to "no deal", is that what I understand you mean?

No it's not what I am saying. I am trying to say that a motion should be passed that allows the people to have the final vote on Brexit, due to the fact that MP's are never going to get this over the line. 60m is much more powerful than the 650 that can't get anything passed.

I am not saying it should be No deal v Remain, or deal v remain, I genuinely don't know what the question should be to be quite honest, that is much more complex. But there simply is no point in extending A50 because we are going to be in the same place in 3/6months time, whilst as already said, I am not sure a GE will solve the problem for sure.

I ask a question to everyone, if you knew a second referendum would overrule the MP's in the meaningful vote, and any decision would be implemented, then would you support it?

[kukushkin88]

Used to be the case that MPs were elected by the public to act as public servants and carry out the will of the people

Thought that was democracy

Now we have MPs refusing to exercise the will of the people, seemingly about to force another vote upon the people, squeezing the elected government to bend to their will

Not sure what that is but doesn’t look like democracy to me.

Remain might celebrate this turn of events but it’s a pretty dangerous road to travel, regards democracy, freedom and overall public engagement in politics. But as long as the minority get what they want...

The problem with the the ‘will of the people’ is that it is nearly always somewhere between poorly informed and wilfully ignorant (think of your posts itt). That is why all western democracies are some form of representative democracy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

[RED-DOG]

Used to be the case that MPs were elected by the public to act as public servants and carry out the will of the people

Thought that was democracy

Now we have MPs refusing to exercise the will of the people, seemingly about to force another vote upon the people, squeezing the elected government to bend to their will

Not sure what that is but doesn’t look like democracy to me.

Remain might celebrate this turn of events but it’s a pretty dangerous road to travel, regards democracy, freedom and overall public engagement in politics. But as long as the minority get what they want...

[Jon MW]

Used to be the case that MPs were elected by the public to act as public servants and carry out the will of the people

Thought that was democracy

Now we have MPs refusing to exercise the will of the people, seemingly about to force another vote upon the people, squeezing the elected government to bend to their will

Not sure what that is but doesn’t look like democracy to me.

Remain might celebrate this turn of events but it’s a pretty dangerous road to travel, regards democracy, freedom and overall public engagement in politics. But as long as the minority get what they want...

The problem with the the ‘will of the people’ is that it is nearly always somewhere between poorly informed and wilfully ignorant (think of your posts itt). That is why all western democracies are some form of representative democracy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

Also, just over 15 million people voted for Brexit out of a population of about 66 million - how exactly does leaving the EU represent 'the will of the people'?

We have never elected politicians to do what 'the people' want - we elect them to do what is best for the country.