blonde poker forum

Here is the launch press release


Amateur Poker Association & Tour Formed In UK

London, August 1, 2006 – Amateur Poker Limited, in association with PokerStars.com and PokerPlayer Magazine, today announced the formation of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (the “APAT”).

The APAT is the world’s first combined Poker Association and Tour, and will hold its inaugural live event, the English Amateur Poker Championship, at the Broadway casino in Birmingham on September 23rd & 24th, 2006.  Players will start the event with 10,000 in chips, and a structure designed to encourage creative play throughout. 

The Tour, headline sponsored by the world’s leading tournament site PokerStars.com, will allow APAT members to take part in a series of high profile events with low entry fees, and with sponsor funding increasing the value of prizes considerably. 

Season one will feature seven national and international events culminating in European and World Amateur Poker Championships.  Each APAT event winner will receive a cash prize, an engraved Championship Cup and an expenses paid European Poker Tour or World Series Of Poker main event entry.  In addition, the APAT will run an Online Series of nationally titled events on PokerStars.com, with the overall APAT player of the year winning an expenses paid trip to the sun to play in the PokerStars.com Caribbean Adventure World Poker Tour event.

The Association, headline sponsored by PokerPlayer Magazine, will consult with gaming and industry bodies to enhance the player experience; with standardisation of rules, player friendly structures and event sponsorship at the top of its agenda.   APAT news updates and detailed Tour reports will feature in each new issue of PokerPlayer Magazine, notably increasing the profile of each APAT event winner.

Tony Kendall, APAT Chairman, said:  “I am delighted to be associated with the Amateur Poker Association & Tour, which I believe is a significant new development in European poker.  The APAT will quickly become ‘the’ affordable proving ground for players wanting to realise their potential in high quality live events, and a guaranteed added value prize pool is great news for everyone.  I look forward to welcoming players of all abilities to the APAT, and if it’s your first time in a casino environment, then we’re going to give you a truly memorable experience.”

Tamar Yaniv, European Director of Marketing at PokerStars.com, added:  “PokerStars.com is passionate about poker in the UK, and the Amateur Poker Association & Tour shares our values in wanting to give their members the best tournament experience possible.  Each player has a chance to win a national title and those who do will get the opportunity to fulfil their dream at a PokerStars.com European Poker Tour event or at the World Series Of Poker.  We’re pleased to sponsor the APAT, and look forward to meeting members in cardrooms across the UK, and online at PokerStars.com.”
 
 
APAT Membership and Tournament registration can be obtained online at www.apat.com.  Individual Membership of the Association will cost £10, while entry to the English Amateur Poker Championship will cost £67.50 with a registration fee of £7.50, subject to availability.  Online qualification will be available at PokerStars.com for APAT’s international tournaments, starting with the European Amateur Poker Championship during the Easter holiday period, 2007.

For additional information on the Amateur Poker Association & Tour, and an electronic press pack, contact Richard Prew, media@apat.com, or visit the Press section at www.apat.com.

About Amateur Poker Limited:

Amateur Poker Limited is a commercial entity, established by a team of experienced poker and business professionals with a vision to deliver a player focussed proposition, with equal appeal to its members, corporate sponsors and key gaming venues and regulators.   

For Further Information:

Media:

Richard Prew   
Media Director
Amateur Poker Limited

richard@apat.com
   

Tony Kendall
Chairman, APAT
Amateur Poker Limited

tony@apat.com


Commercial:

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com

just read about this in Poker Player magazine - sounds great!

OK all, a few quick points


You will see that tikay is Chairman of APAT and I am a director. This is completely seperate to our involvement with blonde and tikay will post later on a seperate thread about what it means for our blonde roles and the overall relationship between blonde and APAT

In the meantime I am around to answer any queries you may have.....check out www.apat.com for everything you need to know

Interesting but how and who decides who is proffesional and who isn't?
Do you need to bring wage slips?

Looks great - I am in and want to play - but did you have to chose my friends 40th birthday bash as the date for the first event??!

Hi Ian...no wage slips not required.

The definition on the website states the following

"The dictionary defines an amateur as "a person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession."

For the avoidance of doubt, Membership of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour is NOT available to any individual who earns his or her SOLE income by playing poker"

APAT is aimed squarely at the recreational player, possibly moving for the first time into a live environment. As such we do not expect it to attract the interest of sponsored pro's for example. Each individual will have to ask themselves whether their sole income is from playing poker. If it is, they should exclude themselves. We will not police it as such.

Looks and sounds great...well done for getting PokerStars to back it!

Will certainly be joining....

Every success for the future.

Looks good.

If it's anything like the Late Night Poker Ace tourney you will have quite a few self employed business men, unemployed people, people on Gap years etc.

Anyone who quietly earns a living on the internet just has to think of something similar to play.

Anyway it looks like a great event for house husbands like myself 8)

This is great - about time we had something like this!!!  I am really please that Tikay and Tighty are heavily involved - somehow that gives me oodles of confidence int he whole thing.

Well done for getting this up and running and can't wait to be the top player.

Looks interesting:-

An amateur is defined as someone who does not earn their sole income playing poker.  Failure to abide by this rule may lead to disqualification from an event and forfeiture of a player’s entry fee and any prize money won.

This could lead to arguments but it is near impossible to enforce.

I notice you haven't gotten rid of the stringbet rule and why not move the short stack??? :D

It is unclear as to added monies is this because you want to gauge interest before committing?
It's also a little unclear as to how to enter (or am i being thick), i am allowed to register interest only?
Have i missed something?

getting poker into the olympics?

you can't get chess into the olympics. A non starter imho.

Ive now joined!!...(.a fiver if you have a Poker stars account)...and registered an interest in the first live tourney.....but if can  only properly register from the 31st Aug....will it be first come first served race??

It asks for a promo code, any ideas?

Ifm,

the added monies are committed for each of the live events and for the top player of the year in the Online series and tour combined. As you can see they are worth many £000s for each event.

At the moment you can sign up for memebership of APAT but only register an interest in playing the first competition

We will send out a reminder email to all those who register an interest and the first 120 respondents on 1st Sept who pay to enter (!) are in the first comp

buy Pokerplayer magazine  8)


(the joys of corporate life!!)

Wow this is what the UK needs!!!!!

Ive posted the press release on my blog to spread the word hope thats ok and ive also signed up :)

This is unclear, how many?


Does registering interest give you priority?

is it possible to sign up for full £10 membership now or is it just the £5 available now?

The winners prizes for the seven series one events include added value as follows


English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish champoinships: EPT Event package

UK, European and World Amateur Championships: WSOP Main event package

Player of the Year: (points gained in live and online series): WPT Caribbean event package

registering interest does not give you priority for Event 1 entry but you will get an advance notification email


Ace2M, you can sign up for membership via the £10 route now too

I can only see the option with the promo code, so you need to buy their magazine???

Hi IFM,

The guaranteed added value to each tournament is as follows:-

For each of the English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish Amateur Poker Championships - 1 x European Poker Tour main event package, to include flights, hotel and the tournament seat.   

For UK, European and World Amateur Championships - 1 x World Series Of Poker main event package, to include flights, hotels and that all important tournament seat. 

For our player of the year - 1 x PokerStars.com Caribbean Adventure World Poker Tour package, again to include the flights, hotel and tournament seat. 

So all in all, 8 premium tournament packages on offer. 

I would hope you can agree that entry to the English Amateur Poker Championship, at £75 for a 120 runner field, looks like extraordinary good value.  We have certainly worked very hard with PokerStars to deliver 'value' for our Members.  And we believe this is only the start.

With regards to your other question, early tournament registration will not give you priority, but it will ensure you get a reminder. 

What we have avoided doing with this first tournament, is allowing Members to purchase seats immediately as we genuinely believe they would have sold out in the first few days.  Members discovering the site later this week or next week, through the next phase of our launch campaign, would have been disadvantaged.  And we did not want that to occur.  We hope everybody can work with us on this one.

Regards,

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com

if you do not have a Promo code, just press JOIN then SUBMIT on the relevant part of www.apat.com without entering a promo code

You'll then join paying £10 not £5

Just curious, what do you get for your £10?

Am I right in thinking that these events are going to be direct buy-in only?

This is absolutely Fantastic!!!!

If I can be involved in any way, please get in touch :D

So i can save £5 if someone PM's me the code ?  :D

OR we could all save a fiver if someone posts the code on here  :D

Don't think that would go down too well with the sponsors!

Claw, direct buy in only

Flushy...Membership of the Association confers the member the right to enter the live tournaments. Furthermore we expect the Association will represent its members interests as an organisation that will put its players interests at the front of what it is trying to achieve.

For  example in terms of the various issues in which players interests are not currently well represented eg adding value via commerical sponsorship, standardisation of rules, providing a channel to feedback views to the authorities, lobbying to increase exposure for our player base on the various media channels etc

So no goody bag with badges and stuff?

Ah well, this isn't the sponcers web site/forum, it's blonde's

 ;goodvevil;

watch this space. Watch for a while though, but it will come

On the site it sounds like you will only be able to register in person at the venue - is this the case or will we be able to register online?

You get to waste your cash Flushy, you are a pro.............

So to play in the English poker event you have to pay £67.50 for the comp + £7.50 for the juice (how do you get around the gaming laws that say 10%?) and then an extra £10 on top of that?

Sorry if i am cynical i know this league is not for me i just see these things as quite suprising given the idea its supposed to be for the players!

Seeing as this is to represent the players etc. do the membership get to vote in (or out) the people running it?

only problem i see is the rush for registrations only 3 weeks before the comp

meaning that for the amatuer that has to travel will have to pay extra for flights and hotels

Ok, what you seem to be missing is that Pro's have their own voice, if you kick up a stink people will listen.

As a amatuer, the card rooms fail to notice we exist, so if I have to pay £10 for someone to put my right forward as a player I'm HAPPY TO DO SO!

Ok so a few questions so far :D

How do they negate the 10% juice rule?

If you need to be a member to enter the first comp and miss the registration scramble do you get a refund?

Can the members have a say in who runs it?

How can you stop proffessionals entering?

Erm, more to follow :D

I'm busy emptying my diary for the rest of the day here guys...hold on!

(ok the diary is empty already!)


Jon, you will be able to register online from the beginning of September for the first tournament

Who says the casinos will listen? I know that they will be able to organise these comps with low buyins and great structures. That doesn't mean that the casinos are going to start running £50 freezeouts with 8000 starting chips does it?

Who is going to represent the amateurs as well, last time i looked Tikay and Tighty were pros!

Will we have the facility to sign up at blonde bash??, I know they are not related, but having that many armatures together seems like a perfect place to get a few more registrations.

can you also register at the broadway? is that where it is being held? everyones asking so many Q's i cant keep up, everytime i reda1 Q another has been posted

This does need to be addressed however as the most you can charge for registration fee would be £6.75

Then surly that gives them an insight what would be fair?! Do I want a complete novice looking after my intrests? HELL NO!!  They both have a public profile and would hopefully have a greater voice than any amateur.

I think it'd be sold out by then Dan, you need to click like mad when reg opens online LOL

nothing planned for the blondebash to be honest, this is not a blonde related organisation

no sign up at the Broadway, online registration only

I am playing poker full time yes but both tikay and I have other sources of income than playing poker. We both come from an amateur small local comps background. Indeed I play these small comps and listen to amatuers several times a week. I'm more in tune with what a rookie wants than a sponsored pro wants, IMHO

answer to the juice question coming, hold on

Don't forget the £10 backdoor juice aswell!

Surely thats a one off membership fee though

That's exactly what it is. James, stop stirring!

No there is an anual fee

Hi Royal Flush,

You have touched on a couple of very important points.

Our terms & conditions and rules have been approved by both the gambling commission and our initial venue, the Broadway Casino.  This in itself is a unique achievement, in that the Broadway Casino, a fully compliant British Casino Association venue, will run the English Amateur Poker Championship under APAT rules, and not their own.  Our rules, our structure, our clock, our payouts.

The registration charge is 10% of the overall entry charge of £75.00.  It is essential for the long term growth of the Amateur Poker Associaton & Tour, and the value it can return to players, that it is profitable and can represent itself in a professional way.  We will run the APAT as a business and in reality, if you become a Member, that should reassure you.

The APAT will add beween 37% and 77% to the prize pool throughout season one.  We hope to increase this value in season two.  An achievement to be proud of, as we did not have a Member in place when those contracts were negotiated.  Think what we could achieve with 5,000 members, or 50,000?  

The APAT will offer a fantastic opportunity to players who manage on a tight bankroll. We have the potential to positively change the face of the game in the UK.  But we need your support.  I appreciate your right to be cynical, but would invite you to reconsider your position having digested the above.  

Regards,

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com
 

Cynicism aside (though i have not meant to be) the sbove post is frightening.
You have managed to persuade the gaming commission that a juice of the reg fee + juice is ok?
So basically a £1000 + £100 comp can now be juiced at £110??

Oh dear. if i read this wrong then i appologise.

Just had a brief glance at this. I can see only a lot of postives in this venture :)up

So do you consider yourself an amateur player based on your description of one -

"For the avoidance of doubt, Membership of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour is NOT available to any individual who earns his or her SOLE income by playing poker"

As Poker is not your SOLE income would you (or someone in the same position as you) be able to play in the APAT?

Maybe a better description of an Amateur be -
"For the avoidance of doubt, Membership of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour is NOT available to any individual who earns his or her MAIN income by playing poker"

Unless you are saying that just having a separate income other than poker means you can claim amateur status?

As an example how about Vicky C? she is sponsored and earns a lot playing cards. she also does TV work and Writes articles for newspapers websites etc. Is she a pro? Poker is not her SOLE income.....

For the purposes of joining your organisation these arguments do not matter BUT when people who fall into these gray areas start turning up to play against true amateurs then you might have a problem.

Your description of a pro is open to interpretation thats all I'm saying. My concern would be "pros" turning up for an added value game with ameteurs for the value.

However, anything you can do to help poker grow in this country has to be good news.

I agree.  It's not for me at the moment as I simply can't afford it, but this looks to be offering a fantastic opportunity for a number of people, and I hope it is a roaring success!

Can I just say I fully support a poker association iin this country, and am glad steps have been made this way. THE COUNTRY NEEDS IT!!

But doing this kind of registration fee, on top of an entry and a membership fee, is going to cause more problems than less. That £10 members fee will not form part of the prizepool, therefore cannot be included, under Gaming commission regulations?? Playing devils advocate, if the gaming commission are going to alter rules to suit as and when, then it will make it more of a farce  ;goodvevil;

Afternoon all.

Wow! This thread is moving way too fast for me to keep up.

I am about two start two threads.

1) To detrermine the relationship, or not, between blonde & APAT, & how that is handled in a fair & blonde-compliant way.

2) To explain my position, & how it relates to APAT, & blonde, & also, I hope, I will try & anticipate many of your questions.

Bear with me please, you've seen how fast I type......!

Thank you for all the kind, & some not so kind, comments. Many of the questions raised will be answered in my imminent Post.

I willl also explain - before you start! - as to why on APAT Threads & Posts, it is necessary for me to add the signature you see below. I know, it's looks pretentious, but there is a reason, so just bear with me please.

Tony Kendall
Chairman, APAT

Since when does the juice get calculated that way! This is supposed to be a better deal for poker players, a voice for amateur players, and already the defence behind charging more than 10% juice is "well the gaming board will let us do it"

It will run as a business, seems like a great one so far, you have got the added money coming from and on-line poker site so no investment then you are charging this 'special juice' which i assume makes up some of your profits, then you have the extra backdoor £10 juice that you just pocket! Unless of course you can tell us what this extra £10 actually gets the members?

I would love to reconsider my position but so far i don't see any reason too do so! If this wasn't fronted by tikay and tighty then they would be in this thread themselves asking "how can they get away with this?"

As for changing the face of the game, the only thing i see the casinos taking from this is the idea "hey look we can charge more than 10%!!"

Flushy, this is a really positive step, you do come across very negative LOL

I have the same concerns, but I really want this to work!!

Im concerned that it will interfere with tikay and tighty on blonde.... r they leaving us

In fairness to flushy Richard, if this business is going to represent us then they should be answerable to us.
This is an open forum and they must have expected a Q&A session.

It is a fantastic idea, no doubt. Just if its 'for the players' its not a great start to come straight out with charging more juice than normal! I mean if you are going to add money to an event why do you then increase the juice? Why not reduce the added money and get rid of the juice? At least that way all 120 players get some benefit rather than just the 1 player.

I also like people have mentioned can't see how this will stay as an amateur league, as far as i can see if i make money any other way than poker then i can join? So say Phil Hellmuth could play because he writes books?

Hi Royal Flush,

I am quoting the terminology and figures as signed off by the GC.  

We will always act within the gambling law and if there has been a mistake in communication, it will be rectified and corrected.  To clarify, we will not be charging a greater than 10% registration fee.  

Regards,

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com

I understand that, but surely we should support a venture like this and then tweak/shoot down further down the line?

It is their launch day today, and obviously there are some concerns, take a day to think about them all then post.

I have a concern over the ante structure but was going to wait

I dont think its expensive at all, its a small price to pay for the foundation of something that has been missing from poker for far too long.  

As for the "juice" who cares, it costs money to rune an organisation like this, so lets stick that extra few quid in the kitty for the added protection and benefits that APAT will bring. Great tourneys it looks like and a good site on board to boot.

Thats my opinion anyways.

Seems alot of cash to enter for so called normal players. £75 + juice :(.

 :goodpost: ;iagree;

A registration fee may be no more than 10% of the ENTRY fee up to a ceiling of £50

Membership fees cannot be included in this?

It sounds pretty good to me, just wondering if I can afford 2 trips to Birmingham in the same month  ;goodvevil;

Good luck on this TK, Tighty & Mel.

where is the annual fee? i thought it was £10 or £5 dependant on wheather you had a promo code plus the £75 tourney/ reg fee

think Flushy is picking up on the 75.00 + 7.50 actually being 67.50 + 7.50

Which is it as Tighty has mentioned both!

I think this is great news. Weve been shoutin bout it 4 long enuf so lets have positive debate. Leave the negative at the door and be constructive

Well yes those are the things that can be tweaked though, given how much Tikay has had to say about the 150/300 level i am sure it will be in there when the tour starts, as with the 800-1600 level. These are not really concept issues though.

As 4 the entry fee, its no different from any other national assoc. or body, proffesional or otherwise!

10 is v reasonable for membership - it is not a juice.

Your missing the point Mikky, it sounds like you have to pay juice on your membership?

It's not just a one off fee

Im not. U pay 10 quid to be a member of APAT and gain whatever goodys and rights that membership provides.

Eg i join the British Airgun assoc. for 50 quid I get access to legal representation, insurance, entry to national.amatuer competions (additonal fee)

The 10 in not a juice... If u dont think membership is worth 10 then its a diff issue!

Well thats the point, we dont know what we get for the £10

Confused, where does it say £5?

on a side note can the forum limit the size of the pics allowed on sigs, takes ages to scroll down threads with all those grp photo's pics, there too big.

What some may see as negative comments others see as trying to understand how this is going to achieve anything, the comps themselves look excellent value (if you can get in them) and it is worth the money alone.
It's the representative side of it i am curious about and this odd way of working out the juice is alarming to say the least.

The only thing that concerns me is what has been brought up already regarding professionals entering with the argument that poker isn't their sole income.

The below rules on the website show that this can be dealt with - but I would want to see confirmation that their is a commitment to using these measures.

(my emphasis added to the quote)

If you use cardplayers promo code it is a fiver and a fiver annually.

Enter the promo code on the APAT site, and the membership is only £5

Hopefully this is an association, that is doing all the stuff behind the scenes for the players, the comps are a bonus for the members. I have been wanting to see something like this and I was doing one myself and was 30% there already LOL however now this has been done, the beauty of this is it's now a body that can liase with the gaming commission, and protect the players and a basis for uniforming rules etc. So it is all in the benefit of players!

James its in the first post. We get a national body which will fight our cause for us. Representation to casinos, one set of rules, a union, etc

Oh and James, you get nothing, as you can't enter it!  rotflmfao

Though if he gets a paper round he can :D

Actually i am going to start selling my old clothes on E-Bay so i can!

http://www.britishcasinoassociation.org.uk/downloads/guideline_3.pdf

Its the first 3 points that I am referring to when i talk about registration

IFM/james theres ways of addressin things without bein negative. An I should kno, dont I hav a rep for bein a shitstirrer lol!

This is a great idea an whilst everyone will have questions we should word them without tryin to rip a piece out of tightend or tikay. Im glad u r askin the questions however :)

What is our cause? Do we all want the same thing? I would say the vast majority of amateur poker players like having small price re-buys that are over with in 1 night.

What are they going to say to the casinos for us?

One set of rules, if a chain like Grosvenor cant get a single set of rules between its own casinos how is this organisation going to do it across different chains?

A union for who?

Don't get me wrong i love the idea, i just think that if i was going to pay my money for this i would want some specifics laid out rather than very general lines.

If the players and casinos have a reference point to stake an arguement wouldn't it make things simple?

Imagine going to a new casino and not having silly house rules that you have never heard before being implemented.

New operator opens a casino/cardroom, the person they have employed to run cardroom has 2 years experience and he is told to write the rules (it happens!) Can now just copy paste and learn himself LOL

I haven't spoken too tikay but i am chatting to Tighty in between posts, he is aware i mean no malice in my posts. I just can't help thinking this is all a windup. A body to represent the players and the first thing they do is introduce increase juice!

I think it's more like (and i have had many pm's on this) that some folks on here don't like to ask awkward questions, whereas myself and flushy don't mind.
This may make us appear negative and even shitstirrers but it is not necessarily the case.

Small price rebuys is same village territory an is more akin to bingo than poker lol

Maybe it should be a dictatorship because as u say amateurs dont kno whats good 4 them or the game ;)

Well why are these re-buys so popular then?

Casinos periodically introduce weekly freezeouts but they die out as the numbers they get fizzle out.

Fair enuf ifm l kno exactly were ur comin from with that

...just to reiterate, you dont need a promo code to get in for £5, if you have a pokerstars account.....you just enter your stars user name in the appropriate page on the APAT website.

Firstly i have absolutely no problems with ifm and rflush asking questions robustly

This is our Day 1 and we expect teething problems. If people like Ian and James find them, good...we can address them and if necessary correct any mistakes

Now then, on to the point  

We had extensive discussions with the Broadway casino and the Gaming Commission, during which time a GC compliant set of rules was agreed upon. Our events will run therefore to APAT rules not the rules of the venue. I think this is a good start towards one of the association's aims, which is to standardise rules across venues for the player's benefit and a sign of the change that we should be able to effect and the type of progress that we are intending to charge £10 for as a membership fee

We understood from the Broadway that the GC wanted us to charge £67.50 + £7.50

However we will now return to both parties to clarify this...it may be we are talking about £67.50 plus £6.75 registration fee = £74.25 total

Either way you have my and the Managing director's commitment that players in Event 1 will be paying a 10% reg fee maximum

Please bear with me....we will get back to you on it. Rest assured none of us are out to make hay at the players expense..this is something we have signed up to because we firmly believe it puts players first

In addition either tikay, des or I will come back to answers to other questions when we can

dik9, please list your concerns about structure..I will ask Mel to address

I entered my stars name an it costs me a tenner?

Well now you asked :D

there is 75/150 level
there is no 150/300 level

then you jump from 600/1200 to 1000/2000

Surely you must include 750 or 800 level?

Even if it means sacrificing the 75/150 its too bigger jump?

A 2 day program like this should have 75/150 150/300 and 800/1600?

Thats to join the online series?

Also regarding membership fees. The £5 pokerstars membership is referred to thusly:


Does this mean that people who take this option will not be able to enter the live tournaments?

To be fair there is a 75-150 level.

It seems odd no 800-1600 level given there is a 8k-16k level. Maybe its jsut a typo?


Richard, fantastic. Just goes to show healty debate makes a diffence :D

Im confused now. Internet only?

Yes

We haven't talked a lot about the Online Series yet...the OSOAP.....but please take the time to look at the relevant section on the website

Trial event @ the Olympics KEWL :D

This seems clear to me, but if people go from the main page - click on join - put in their pokerstars ID and get given a £5 membership option - is it clear that this is not just a discount from the sponsor?

Also this is good to be able to have communication on this forum - but should there perhaps be a FAQ section on the website? It could initially include questions and clarifications that have arisen here, but with an option of submitting an enquiry?

I have Posted the first of my two "clarification" threads, & am on with the other.

EVERY question you have raised on here, WILL be answered. Fully, clearly, transparently, & honestly, by me, this afternoon. There is APAT activity on a lot of Poker Fora today, so please bear with us, it's a bit hectic.

But I'd suggest it's not wise to jump to conclusions emenating from comments such as we "got round" the 10% Reg Fee thing. I'd like to think that nobody would surmise I'd allow myself to be associated with any venture that tried "getting round" the Gaming Commission, or, more importantly, my fellow players. One of our Sponsors is PokerStars, & believe me, you don't get involved with those guys unless eveything is entirely tickety-boo.

OK, on with my "tikay & APAT" Post now, then I'll answer ALL the questions on here.

Tikay, when I refer to the registration fee, it is just so you can seek clarification, because I think there would be uproar and other casino's would take advantage and use it as a test case. Desd said he is seeking clarification which is good for me. Consultation with the Broadway may not be the best info as they have never charged any registration fee, although their compliance is quite hot on other matters.

To clarify on the Membership question:-

1) Full Membership is charged annually.  In year one this fee will be £10, and for year's two and on, it will be £5.  This will enable Members to play in APAT live and online events and nominate and vote in officer elections.

2) Online Membership is charged annually.  In year one, and annually, the charge will be £5.  This membership will entitle the Online Member to participate in the APAT Online series of tournaments on PokerStars.com.  It will not entitle Members to play in live events or nominate or vote in officer elections. This may be an attractive option for some of our friends from Europe and further afield.

To second what Richard said in an earlier post.  We value all feedback.  This organisation will only work if there is solid support from the Membership.  A productive stream of communication is an imperative to gain that support and trust.

Regards,

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com

I'm confused now, I used the promo code and joined, I have no idea if I joined the online only part, or the proper full membership?!

Just a side note shouldnt the casino's and staff be involved in some way? Is there facilities for casino's/cardrooms to join?

Even on a consultation basis?

Hi Ginger,

The promo code gives you full Membership at a discounted rate!  

I should add this is an exclusive offer we agreed with PokerPlayer as part of a contract that will see the APAT having a monthly column in PokerPlayer magazine, and having some serious space for tournament reports etc.  As evidenced by our appearance on their cover this month, and the fact that Tony was rightly positioned above Mr Sexton (despite his $1m win) in the news section, in the duel of the Tour hosts.....

For further clarification, there is no PokerStars promo code, or Membership discount.

Regards,

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com

Hmm. When I put my pokerstars ID in I still get the 10quid fee (good) but what if I want online only

Thanks for the reply Des, and cheers Tighty for the help too  :D reading the receipt tends to help lol  :blonde:

I am officially member 002  :D

This is for the association (£10 fee unless you have the promo code)

http://www.apat.com/join.html

This is for the online series (£5 only)

http://www.apat.com/onlineseries.html

Hi Richard,

There will be an important dialogue to have with the casino groups, and at this stage it would seem sensible to negotiate as a separate entity.  With the backing of a serious number of players we can enter a dialogue with a meaningful voice.  

Casino workers would be very welcome to join the APAT, subject to the T & Cs of the BCA.

Regards,

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com

Des (hmm TightEnd is better!) can I pay double to secure membership num 007? either that or 4 more peeps sign up!

In all fairness then Mel

The absense of 800/1600 makes it ridiculous

As Flushy said  " thought it was a typo"

So each to their own I suppose, if I was playing myself (which I can't so I am impartial) I would not want such a jump even if I was chip leader, seems that if you haven't got average chips by that stage you just gotta shove em in, or is it an attempt to whittle down the field in that session?

600/1200 to 1000/2000 :o :o

TY nice one

bb jumps 800 is a bit steep?

Got to say, I kind of have to agree  :dontask:

I'm not Des!

 :D

 ;iagree;

Hmm something is afoot!

12 inches

afoot not a foot.

Anyway I told u not 2 tell any1 that u saw that!

The blinds
400/800
500/1000   (this level is not normal in most uk comps)  and normally it jumps straight to
600/1200   <---------  

So an added level in for more creative play.

Its only after 6 hours and 40mins do the blinds go from 600/1200 to 1000/2000

 

Much better to get rid of that one and reinstate the 800/1600 then?
800 is a huge raise in blinds (what 80% increase?) at any stage of a comp.

I can see that you have the extra level, but in all honesty I would prefer to lose the 500/1000 and have not such a large jump later. It takes a far greater % of your stack!

So why put it in? Take it out and have 400/800 600/1200 and 800/1600 then 1000/2000 why be different, I can see where you are coming from and you do get more play that way, but the increase will effect everyones play, surely it should gradually go up?

sorry, 66 and a bit % increase :o :o :o

All,

Unless I am having a blonde moment, I haven't seen a satisfactory definition of who is/isn't allowed to play in this series, in terms of "professional" status. The main problem is that if this series goes the way it goes, theres going to be a real sick overlay due to the relatively high buyins and relatively low level of skill, so its going to hold certain attractions to this.

Take Johnny Chan, his sole income isn't poker. Same with Negranu. Same with Doyle. Are these allowed to play?

its slightly pedantic, but at the same time highlights the need to have proper boundaries.. as if it is really for the amateurs/less skilled people, theres no way that tikay/tighty (and numerous other people on here) should be allowed to play in this series.

My opinion is everyone should be able to have a say pro's and amateurs alike, some of the previous attempts have only let pro's in, for a tenner everyone can get a vote. I would however limit it to British players or players that regularly play in Britain.

If the objective is for British players?

Can you clarify 'Ireland' = 'Northern Ireland' and not 'All Ireland'?

Totalise whilst I hear that sentiment you are doing the amatuer a disservice by describing him as less skilled.

just because sum1 plays poker 4a living does not mean they are more skilled than sum1 who plays recreationally.

My profession is computer programmer. there are far more talented programmers out there who for there own reasons remain amatuer and program 4 fun/free or both.

I am currently unemployed. If I got a job at tesco I wud still be a professional programmer.

Guys thanks for the feedback its very much appreciated.

All the feedback will be getting reviewed in the next couple of weeks with all our board
members and so therefore we can amend and tweak things as needed

See you on 23/24 September

Mel
Tournament Director

The 'who can enter debate' concerns me too, I've just left my job, so at the moment my only income comes from Poker, but I wouldn't consider myself a professional yet...

Whatever is covered by the British Gaming Commissiom, as it is these buggars that vito everything and need to listen to a body of people that know what they are talking about

I am describing a field of amateurs as being less skilled then if it was an open tournament. There is no way that is an incorrect assertion, and its not even a relevant part of my post.

What I am trying to figure out is what exactly the criteria is for someone like me/flushy/pab and all the other internet "professionals". Are we not allowed to play? what about if we include my property overseas that I sometimes rent out. Am I then elligible to play and pab/flushy (etc) not? that would be pretty crazy huh


thats true, and just because someone programs computers for a living doesn't mean they are more skilled at writing programs then a boiled egg, but its a reasonable assertion

reasonable maybe. Generalisation almost definately.

Im currently without income and using small stakes poker as a means of living. But i wudnt say im professional. Were do I stand? U raise a good point totalise. And our difference of opinion only goes to show how vague the requirement is..

so then we have Mikky, Floppy, totalise, flushy and pab as professionals and so ineligible :D

Wow, me as part of that illustrious cast of top notch players...




And Flushy.

It is in the APAT rules that the eligibility of players can be decided by APAT, this suggests some sort of commonsense approach.

i.e. if you earn a vast sum from poker and poker sponsorship but also write a few books - you won't be allowed to enter, if you're unemployed and hence you're only earnings are from poker until you get another job - you can enter.

This would be the best approach in my opinion because once you start setting hard and fast rules, exceptions to make these rules look silly can always be found. But it does rely on the policing being done and the common sense being applied, otherwise it will just become a free for all with anybody entering because they know they can get away with it.

I have found that having a "common sense" approach to these things generally indicates a level of subjectiveness that might lead to potential problems down the road. I think the best approach is to try and avoid problems before they become problems, although thats only my opinion

One of the initial attractions to playing tournament poker for me was the fact that as long as I paid the entrance fee I can sit down with world champions or at least "names".
At the level I play now, while still very much part time and social, I couldn't see myself participating in these apat tournaments. I would rather use the money to participate in a festival event with more prestige and European ranking points.
Is that wrong? Am i a poker snob? Probably, but unless I missed something am I right in thinking that for a lot of people on this forum this apat is not aimed at them?

Well it's £75 for a start, most fessies start at £100 rebuys these days.

Hi Totalise, and YT from an earlier post.

The amateur / professional divide has been the most difficult decision that we have had to take to reach this point in development.

Poker Associations have been tried before, and to my knowledge none have worked.  At APAT, we wish Jesse Jones the very best of luck with the WPA, but to date he has not received the true support of the players.  In the first 4 months the WPA had fewer than 200 members.  That has grown to a degree during the WSOP, but it is still small beans compared to the territory he has targetted.

Professional players are uniquely difficult to coral.  They make huge decisions on a daily basis, few have guaranteed pay cheques at the end of the month.  Their business is not team orientated and if I am honest, I'm not convinced that the APAT could represent such powerful individual voices at this stage in our development.  

A good example may be Harry D's discussions with Jeremy Pollack a couple of weeks back.  I do not know Harry personally, but I have read his posts, and characterise him as a very smart guy, who clearly felt very aggrieved at the WSOP.  Harry decided to direct his concerns directly to the WSOP, but yet several hours later allowed himself to get in a position whereby he was ejected from a tournament.  This example is not to reopen the merits of that ejection, but rather to wonder why Harry did not go through the WPA.  And I think I am safe in saying that Harry is probably one of the most respected players on the professional circuit.

I firmly believe the only way that players can earn a say in the running of this game is through professional dialogue.  Even tempered, objective orientated with a clear game plan.  I believe an amateur player set will buy into that.  If the model works, perhaps somewhere down the line we can break down the barriers with professional players.  To have that level of individualism work with us, I think we will have to prove ourselves first.  

I think it unlikely that Messrs Chan, Brunson etc are going to turn up in Birmingham  :D, but on the question of players who reside in the 'grey area'.  

With regard to Tony and Richard specifically.  They will not play due to their roles at Amateur Poker Limited.  

With regard to the player who solely earns his living playing internet poker at home or in local cardrooms around the country.  In reality we cannot easily police him.  Each player will determine his status when entering a tournament.  It is an easy ask as to whether your sole income comes from playing poker or not.  Some may take advantage and enter despite being professional.  If we find those players we will disqualify them, and they will lose any ranking points or prize money awarded.

Regards,

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com

will there be free buffets?

Des, what will you do if someone is a professional and does win one, someone points this out to you and he/she simply denies it?

Typical stud player

Where do these players register for the Birmingham event? with APAT or Broadway?, because as it stands Casino's cannot discriminate between entries and Competitions must be open to all, unless the cardroom has been booked for a private function, and whoever books it should also look after monies?

LOL never mind the juice, never mind the pro/amateur debate, never mind the blind structure .... booder wins the prize for asking the all important question... I await an answer :D :D

The prospect of a free buffet was crucial to my support for APAT

I have only got to page 3 so far. It looks really interesting.  Forgive me if this has already been asked, but I wanted to catch Tightend before he goes for his 5 pm nap.

If a snooker or pool player turns pro, he can no longer compete in amateur events. Once he has held a pro ranking, he can't reverse this.

Is this series going to act by the same rules as the snooker and billiards association?   For example, if Flushy was offered a job as the Queen's official pilot, could he then play in these events as he would no longer be a pro player?

Stop speaking like a bloody politician..YES or NO ;)

Online registration on www.apat.com

first 120 entries on 1 sept who have paid get in, therefore APAT collects the monies

As with any other event, we won't discriminate as to eligible entries until it is full

I think so (politician for Yes)

Silly point, but can you make sure all entries bring ID to casino as well as producing for your membership, if they aren't already members.

So will registration open at midnight of the 31st?

Being the Queen's pilot is an arduous job, leaving not much time for online play

It also pays well

As such I would say Flushy would then be eligible

that is my understanding, yes

The association is aimed at all amateurs. As such apat is aimed fair and square at many blondeites.

As to the Live comps, they are designed to deliver "festival" levels of return for a lower buy in, and as such suit those on a more limited bankroll. Again, that seems to me to suit many blondeites

We would not disqualify a competitor on the hearsay of a third party

By the same token we do not intend asking for bank statements and tax returns from people!

Typlical bloke!

Given the criteria, I really don't know if I qualify to play or not. I would hate to abstain and then see others in my situation playing. but would also hate it if I did play and someone said "Oi!! He's not eligible"

I'm going to let you lot decide.

But, as Acidmouse pointed out, £75 is still a fair whack for many a recreational player.   If, as someone else suggested, most festivals start at £100 rebuy, are there really that many more people that can comfortably afford a £75 freeze than can't stretch to a £100 rebuy?  I'm not trying to stir anything up here, it just seems that the target membership might be fairly limited.

This is the main event though.

Before I saw this I was looking at playing in a big tournament and the cheapest main event I could find for 2005 was £300. This would be a stretch for me, but next year I might manage it.

But I'm not going to bother spending £300-£400 on a £100 rebuy side event when I might just be outspent by other people anyway.

OK, lets start with the most important one - free buffets!

We are working out the details as we go along.

At Event One, on Day One, yes, free buffet.

At Event One, Day Two, all those who make it through to Day Two of the comp will be invited to Sunday Lunch as guests of the APAT.

But why no norkage questions?

Wishing all the best with this new venture for all those concerned.

I have to say that this forum is one of the better ones for not having ridiculously negative posts.  Other forums have trolls that seem intent on wasting their lives wishing ill on other people that are trying to make things happen.  Here at least, the questions are fair (if not self-answering on the apat website for some..) and I am sure will be taken in the right spirit.

As with all things, a new venture has to decide on a target market.  This will mean that for many the venue/buy-in/structure/something else won't appeal.  If the marketing is done right - it will appeal to 120 players and the event will be a success.  If it isn't, then they will have to re-think their strategy.  For me personally £75 is too small to take up 2 days and a hotel bill, (not if I am nailed on to win it of course) but that doesn't give me the right to complain that a new venture hasn't been set up with exactly my wishes in mind.

The structure looks ok, there is a bit of a jump as pointed out but there are so many chips in play that average stacks should be something like 60k when they do - so it will speed up a bit but hardly require an all-in frenzy.  Last time I played in one of these deep stack+low buy in tournys, 2 people that were moaning about the poor structure managed to get it all in ON THE VERY FIRST ORBIT with ace-rag -v- a small pair!  No structure in the world will give that sort of player a good tournament.

I agree that the "pro" definition is a little woolly for a court of law.  But this doesn't need to be a court of law. A common sense interpretation and I don't see a problem - if you really think you are on the margin then ask for clarification before you enter.  It is certainly less ambiguous IMHO than "beginners night" with the LNP stars out in force...

So GL to all those behind it and to those that choose to play.  I may well roll up at one or two of them - I'm bloody sure that I don't meet the criteria of "pro" no matter what definition you choose to apply!

 :D   I am innocent

will there be any hot blokes there Tikay?

I probably won't be playing any of these events Claire   :D

This may have already been answered, sorry if it is.  I am only on P7. 

Will the option be there to take the money instead of a WSOP/WPT seat?   Basically, can you take $10,000 instead of the seat?

;)  If there are will make my job harder

:goodpost: ;iagree;

I have a couple of questions regarding the online registration but i shall leave those until you have gotten thru the other questions in this thread :D

Making a distinction between pro and amatuer players is almost impossible, this rule is unenforcable. It will be broken and lead to bad feeling and big problems.

Excluding anyone from a poker tournament who has the buy-in money goes against the grain and in my opinion against the 'ethos' of the game. Unless of course an individual is barred for cheating or anti-social behavior.

I am a professional player and I can see lots of reasons why I would like to play in this type of event, why do you want to exclude me?

Des,
      I must say the £5/£10 online/offline membership wasn't clear to me when i joined this morning!

I joined thro my pokerstars account ,paid £5 and have a reciept saying " APAT Annual membership"  MEM003

....so do I have to "join" again for "full" membership??

Claire, I respect your view. However the buy in has been carefully set to offer "festival" type returns once you add the extra value in but at a lower buy in that the smallest festival event anywhere

I know £75 is not exactly cheap, but it still represents great value for money with this structure and these rewards

Thanks Jon MW.

Buy-in levels are entirely subjective, no buy-in "suits all pockets".

We went for this level as we thought it about right, given what we set out to achieve.

We certainly can't be all things to all players.

There may, of course (not my Department, sorry to be vague) be Online Super Sats for the Live Events though.......

Tony Kendall
Chairman, APAT

Online sats for the live events! :)

Hi Ripple,

If you send the specific details to 'customer@apat.com', I will organise to refund the APAT Online Membership.  You will then have the option to rejoin under a full Membership, which we hope you do!

Regards,

Des.

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com

oh no, the Chairman has gone off piste

These are my initial thoughts on this subject (it's taken me a long time to get through this thread, so please bear with me) :D

Firstly, this whole enterprise seems to me to be a very worthwhile one, in that there must be a market out there for a recreational player who wants to play a proper festival style tournament (i.e. not a fast-structured crapshoot), but who cannot afford to spend £000s to play an EPT event, or even £00s for a British Festival event.

Basically I say this because I am one such player! My bankroll would not extend to a £100 rebuy where I know I'll have to spend £300-£400 at least to have a decent chance. A £75 freezeout, however, is not beyond the realms of possibility for me. It could be a very useful 'springboard' to a higher bankroll - if I do well at the event - or, if I do lose, I will probably only be set back by a couple of weeks.

As Mr. Galloway pointed out, however, it's a bit of a different story when you have to include expenses (travel and 2 days accommodation will probably far outweigh the entrance fee), since I don't live near the Birmingham venue I am not sure whether I will be able to make the first event. The upside though, is that a lot of pros will similarly give the event a miss, being as the rewards will not be high enough to warrant their interest and expenditure.

However, the 'T' part of the APAT is encouraging; if this is indeed a Tour, then I will assume that at some point in the course of the year London will be included. I see from the APAT website's "schedule" page that events in Dublin and Las Vegas have already been confirmed. The venue for the UK Amateur Poker Championship (28-29 December) looks like the most likely possibility.

It's good that the issues of the registration fees/tournament fees are being discussed now, along with the blind structures; it even looks like progress is being made mere hours after the launch! Hopefully, these issues will be ironed out to the satisfaction of all and these events will be all the better for it.

Thanks for that Des, will do.

I have the Poker Player mag at home for the promo code!

we have one also..................dewi

I fully appreciate that - this comment was in reply to a post about the target audience. I was just wondering how large that target would be.

time will tell...early indications are the target market is rather large

An excellent venture and I wish all involved the very best of luck.

I think arguments over the definition of a professional are pretty academic. A common sense approach is all that is needed.

The only thing I don't approve of is the back door circumnavigating of the 10% juice rule. Once APAT start doing it, every casino will jump on the bandwagon. Which would be a real shame as the UK is the best place to play poker in the world at the moment. Let's keep it that way.

Thanks Keith

Point taken about the back dooring of the 10%. We have committed to stay within the 10% earlier on this thread

Ooops. Thought I had read the entire thread. Missed that post. Apologies.

Claw there is a world of diff between 100 rebuy and 75 f/o.. an average of 5-600 quid.

An the rebuy is usually the first night of the f/o

Grr sorry Claw some1 else already aswered u. darn slow phones!

About the juice - does gaming law say 10% added for juice - eg 10 + 1 or does it say 10% can be removed for juice? eg 9 + 1!

Dependin on wording, it would be fine to do 67.50  + 7.50 as this is 10%!

;goodevil;

No, absolutely not - this is an APAT fundamental.

Firstly, please see my "APAT & tikay" Post, to set the scene.

I'm on record as being a believer in players having the right to do "business". That remains my view in normal Tournament Poker, & always will do.

But this is not the APAT way, & having been part of the developmnt of "the APAT way", I'm entirely comfortable with our stance - no deals.

Taking Event One as an example, this is THE ENGLISH AMATEUR POKER CHAMPIONSHIP. A title to be won, cherish, & held for life. The 2006 Amateur Poker Champion will ALWAYS be an Englsh Amateur Poker Champion, come what may. So we don't want that Title to be sullied by suggestion of deals.

The Prize Money is also "top heavy", quite deliberately, to encourge the players to really go for it. Same argument, & again, I can reconcile it with my well-known views that in normal Tourney Poker, the payout structures should be flatlter.

We actually looked at paying the Prize Money by cheque, as a further disincentive for players to "deal" but that's not as easy as it sounds, for GC reasons.

Can we stop players doing business? If they really want to, probably not, but we can make it tough for them so to do - very tough indeed! But if players enter into the spirit of what we are trying to do, there will not be a problem.

But the straight answer to Sark's question is "no, you cant take the cash in lieu of the EPT Seat".

If I win it can I be called "The Winner of the English Poker Championship" please? ;)

(knowing fine well it'd be 'lucky f@#*in Jock' if I did  :D )

i am a member my reciept said MEM001

guess i dont have a subscription to pokerplayer so had to pay the full price

Bainn and I have now joined.  Sounds like a fantastic idea - the chance to  play in a tournament with a structure you would only normally find in a major buy-in event, but with a far more affordable buy-in.

Congrats Tikay and TightEnd for all your hard work in putting this together.

No one has tried to answer this question.

Just wait until an English players wins the Scottish Amateur Poker Championship.

Or, heaven forbid, a Welsh player wins. But that's just silly I guess.Tooooo far-fetched.

Well obviously you want to enter - lots of recreational players you'd have a better chance of beating for a value added prize pool - doesn't this answer your question?

And isn't the word Amateur a clue in the organisation name?

i was watching a wpt episode last night when paul maxfield was discribed as an amateur player so i guess that would mean most people that would want to play in this event would be amateur IMHO

i think there should be a PPAT and members could only join and play on one or the other

although members of APAT could move up to the PPAT but they would no longer be able to play on the PPAT

Am I being silly here, but didn't you answer it yourself....

' I am a professional player ' and this is the Amateur Poker Association & Tour

edit: sorry, didn't refresh and see Jon MW's post before i posted

Hi War,

Sorry, but I'm trying to get everyone's questions answered as quick as I can, & in the nature of things, doing the quicker ones first. Yours is on my list, & I'll be there as soon as possible.

By the way - well done on Sunday, in the SuperBlinds, you deserved to win, you outclassed the rest of us.

I'm off out so i'll add the registration questions now.

How is the online reg to be done? is it first click or first payments accepted, if so which is quicker? debit card, credit card, paypal, netteller etc.??

As there are only 118 places (2 appear to have been allocated) first come first served looks like the only real way but do people who have registered an interest get priority?

Do you have to have joined in order to book a place or can you join if you get a spot?

Must admit was suprised when he said the money was going to be top heavy, thought he kept going on about flatter structures to get rid of deals being better. This only forces people to make those deals people get upset about.

Is this a non profit making organisation?

Where did totalises post go??

Who pulled the plug? Totalise did you delete yourself?

LOL I went to modify it and I guess hit the "delete" button instead, some pop up appeared and I just randomly clicked "yeah whatever" and vamooosh

prolly a good thing anyways, its none of my business

LOL

We will have to review the signing up process in the next week or so as to the way we allocate seats because I am not sure any more due to the high levels of interest that a "Madonna concert all tickets gone after 90 seconds" situation is the best way to go

Pre-registering an interest does not at the moment get priority but we are looking again

You have to have joined to be eligible for a spot

It is a commerical organisation

crikey, for a moment I thought I had deleted totalise's post by mistake

that was a good few minutes for the conspiracy theorists :)

It seems there is nothing to stop a professional (albeit non-"name") player from entering, barring their own conscience. Poker players generally seem to be a group that aren't overly-burdened in that department, so I can see there being quite a bit of professional interest.

The only thing stopping the tournament being flooded sub-rosa with pro players is the fact that at £75, it might not generate the kind of prize pool that a pro (who values their £/hr rate) would be interested in.

Having said that, a few people on here who are obviously pros have already said they might want to play (e.g. Wardonkey) so perhaps the system will not work as well as people are hoping... it's obviously difficult to say, before the first event has gone ahead.

How does it make it's money then?
Do pokerstars help fund it?

tightend and tikay have been banned from moderating on an thread about apat

(it was a self imposed ban but will be fully monitered)

The added money certainly an attraction, but I doubt the overlay would cover the expense of travel and hotel bills which come with a two day event.

My main reasons for wanting to attend would be social. Also though I am a 'professional' player I have very little experience in live events with long(ish) clocks and deep stacks an event like this would be excellent practise for the 2 or 3 festivals that I attend each year.  


What is good for the amateur is good for the professional. This Association seems to be in a much better position to represent me than the PPA. I understand that the target market is not the sponsored pro and that the association is more about looking after the 'average player'. I actually feel that when it comes to live events I have more in common with the skilled amatuer than I do with the tournament professional.

totalise, it is your business...no problem with you asking the q's

It is not juiced to high heaven (I remember that part of your post!)...it is £67.50 with a 10% reg

The association requires £10 for a person to become a member. This is NOT backdoor juice, it is for the Association to do its intended work with all other relevant stakeholders and thus cover its costs firstly

Deals? All payouts are currently intended to be by cheque to the recipients. We intend to promote play throughout the final table both by this and by our structures...as a genuine competition if you will to determine and undealt winner

Heavy payout structure? The added value package is for the winner. It is not allowed to be "dealt" by our sponsor.That aside we promote the following ...gold silver and bronze medals to the top three, trophies and a payout structure geared towards them

Me too Red, I play live(hardly at all lately) and online and I also bet on sports.

If I were to win the lottery and become wealthy overnight would that make a difference ?

Any long term winning player must be at least a semi pro, right? Or does the amount of money they win somehow make a difference to the definition? The lines are very very blurred imo.

Could someone tell me if I would be allowed to play?

Thanks

A commercial organisation

It is in the members interests if APL is profitable to be able to be professionally deal as an association with the various large industry and regulatory bodies that it will have to deal with as it seeks to improve those issues that its members want to be tackled

The sponsors, Poker Stars and PokerPlayer, are clearly helpful to the business in terms of added value to the tournaments and media coverage throughout Season 1. Both serve to increase the profile of APAT and thus improve the likelihood of it being a voice that will be heard

I have to agree with alot of the points made so far in the thread, so won't repeat them! As with anything this will suffer from some teething problems and unexpected issues. But i for one wish them all the best!

This is a step in the right direction, even if there is some points i disagree with. One is the "No Deals" and the "Top Heavy Payouts" This seems to go against alot of previous posts that the people involved have made. Why change it for what is ment to be great structured events!

I also side with Wardonkey and Red-Dog... Where do we fit in between Amateur and professional. Also you seem to be penalising the "Successful Amateurs".

Alot of things need to be worked on but i'm sure in time the issues will be resolved!

Tighty fielded most of ifm's questions, except the rather odd "only 118 places, 2 appear to have been allocated". I don't understand this - there are 120 Seats available for Event # 1. To whom have the 2 seats been allocated?

As to Totalise's "disappearing Post", I read the gist of it pre-Delete, & will answer it in due course. It's in the queue. Extrordinary how quickly the "who deleted Totalise's Post?" questions appeared! Who else would it be, apart from the OP?

Is the tournament registration going to be through the Paypal system like the joing up registration was? This was easy - I wouldn't mind this.

I just want to say that this is exactly how I feel...  the allure of playing poker with amateurs in friendly live environments is far more superior to me then playing in a £1k tourney full of people close to being broke who are trying to shoot an angle every chance they get.

********

Tighty, I am with you on not chopping the sponsors addition, that would be very wrong.. but it doesn't seem right to tell them what to do with their own money.. it seems like its more a case of putting the sponsors first then the players, which seems to contradict the whole ethos of the APAT. That is my main gripe.....

I have tried to read all of this thread but getting a head ache and in trouble with Mrs Indy as I promised her quality time tonight.  :D
Just as a suggestion would it be possible to do a thread afterwards a bit like the at a glance threads with no interactivity just to summarise the points we need to know about.
My initial reaction is positive to the APAT, and the membership fee appears to beer money not worth worrying about. I will no doubt try for the weekend of the 23rd. I guess there isn't an easy way of selecting 120 to play, but the thought of tapping away in vain at my pc past midnight trying like a desperate Kylie fan trying to get tickets for a Kylie show doesn't appeal (I did get 1 ticket by the way  :D) I think you have to stick with the chosen plan as advertised, but perhaps drawing lots, or an mtt could be better for future weekends.
Message for Byronkincaid, no sorry (give us fish a chance.  :)up)

I need to revert back to the "dangler" I posed about Online Sats.

As I have Posted elsewhere, I have no role in the OSAP, but online sats for APAT sort of "crosses" the line, so I checked it out with Des.

The present position is that it's likely (note "likely") that the following will be the case.

Online Sats will be run for the European Amateur Poker Championship (pencilled in for Deauville in April, but tbc) & The World Amateur Poker Championship, provisionally scheduled for Vegas next summer.

By their very nature, the buy-ins for these two events may well be higher, thus justifying Online Sats, & it's planned that these will indeed take place.

Sadly not. PayPal would not allow this, as it conflicts with their stance on gambling. (And yes, I know they appear to make exceptions, but that's their call, not ours).

So alternative Payment Options are currently being organized. These are horrendously complex to set up in some cases, but in one case, we are only days away.

Oddly, PayPal allowed us the right for Members to subscribe, but not to register for Tourneys. Caused us some last minute head-scratching, I can tell you!

Plan B is in place, & well on the way to completion.

How can the association maintain impartial objectivity when it is driven by making a profit for the owners?

The fact that it is profit driven is not clear at first.

When a new chairman is elected next year will they be paid?

It's starting to look like another poker venture dressed up as something else, i am all for the concept but it feels like i will just be paying an extra rake to APAT to organise a decent tournamet series.

If the tour will be televised will television revenues be added to prize pools?

TV companies get poker for free, I think on some US channels you (or more realistically your sponsor) have to pay the TV company to show it.

wow, theres a lot to digest here but one thing about the tourny at The Broadway.
Now £75 seems fine for a freezeout, but you have to add 2 nights accommodation and travel expenses etc.
And im sure Mel stated it would be a 7hour first day? and Im sure i read it starts at 3pm, so finished at 10pm?
Well i like the 3pm start idea but surely why only seven hours, play longer on day 1 narrow the fields so at least people could go home/make arrangements rather than having to return on day two still way out of the money?

i will have another read again later, ive joined anyway :)

Now i'm sorry but this is now getting a little ridiculous .

Does McDonalds or B&Q say anywhere on their website that they are profit driven?  Does any company who has a website say that?  I think the answer you will find is no.

One thing is certain we need members to survive otherwise there won't be a next year.
We are a new venture and are going to strive to give our members the right structures, right payouts and damn fine poker venues for our players and sponsors so that we get to year 2

We will be striding forward for televised events but I think we are quite a way off that yet, but its in the pipeline and once again all comments will be passed to the board for review so we can discuss at a later stage

The amount of money you win as a poker player makes no difference.  We know its going to be very much be common sense in quite a few poker players cases to assess if you are eligable or not.

One main question is do you play poker for a living?  If the answer is yes then no you will not be eligable to play

Other cases we may need to know more information from you to assess.  If in doubt then email our customer services  ,   customer@apat.com

Neither do they call themselves a players' association.

exactly.. and other organisations aimed at being FOR THE PLAYERS are non-profit organisations like the WPA (which says explicity on their website its a non-profit organisation)

to call a very valid point/question rediculous, is quite frankly rediculous, especially from someone who has a vested interest in it suceeding

For the past 3 or 4 months I haven't made any sort of a living doing anything.

I ask here as I thought Tikay or Tighty might know enough about me to be able to give a decision. I wouldn't wish to embarress myself or anyone involved by trying to blag my way into a seat.

Would snoops be allowed to play? Tighty if he were not involved? How about Baron?

I believe they all play 2/4 or higher. I am currently a break even/moderate winner at 0.50/1 and a big loser at 1/2.

I used to play sng's for a living but I haven't played a sng for 3/4 months now.

My GF is pretty much paying for everything and when I'm not looking after our daughter and doing housework I'm losing money playing cash games. Hopefully I'll start winning soon.

I'm not sure if I can make this event or even if I want to play it, but I am interested to know if I am allowed to play it if I so wish.

I heard you described as a pro on Breakfast TV. Would you be allowed to play if you were not involved?

Many Thanks

What channel was this mate?

blimey that took some catching up. I'm going to get my thoughts in quick before it moves on too far

-Well done great idea.

-I don't object to the organisation running at a profit or the people involved profiting personally. If I don't feel like it's value for money, I don't have to renew my membership next year.

-It's a tour so you don't need to travel to Birmingham at great expense. simply wait til the tour roll into your area and play then.

-personally I think £75 is too much. I think £50 would have been better. that said, for some one with a job £75 for a one off special event isn't unreasonable. I do however think that a one day event would have been more appropriate. 3pm start, 12 hours play. job done.

- blind jump from 600/1200 to 1000/2000  >:? sorry. huge mistake nice steady progression 400/800 600/1200 800/1600 1000/2000 much better.

-Name me 10 people who make their income solely from playing poker. I can't name one that doesn't have income from outside business interests. Infact I know of a lot of very big hitters who are company directors and earn alot of money but still play pretty much full time. I don't envy this issue but "Soley from poker" is the wrong criteria because it doesnt exclude anyone. by keeping the buy in low you keep big hitters away because it's not worth their trouble. another good reason for £50.

I have absolutely nothing against you, tighty or anyone else involved, in fact i have real respect for you all.

i honestly think my questions were valid, my job involves attention to detail and on first read of the announcement i was very enthused but honestly think there maybe a room for people not to realise that it is a commercial venture and the players will thus be paying for a service rather than joining association.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=10420.0 (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=10420.0)

Hi Byron

As much as I'd love to play the event i'm afraid as I play poker for a living
I cannot enter, and couldn't enter it as i'm TD ;)  

however from how you described your situation then I would say that yes you would
be eligable to play as you said "For the past 3 or 4 months I haven't made any sort of a living doing anything and My GF is pretty much paying for everything and when I'm not looking after our daughter and doing housework I'm losing money playing cash games"  

Hope this answered your question

Mel

Looks like I am going to have a problem here, as you seem pretty anti, but that's your absolute right, & I will answer your questions as best I can.
 
OK, lets call those Questions 1 to 5.

Question 1.

By appointing a Chairman who they believe can maintain that "impartial ojectivity". Rightly or wrongly, Des D thought I was competent to handle that. Anything he wants to do with APAT, he has to run through me. Anything & everything. And he does. And we argue, to & fro. If he wishes to implement something I disagree with, I have the right to refuse. If there are those who feel I am unable to manage that remit with "impartial objectivity", well, they won't become Members I guess. As I indicated in my "APAT & tikay" missive, it's tough to elect a Chairman for Year one, so I was selected. For year two, the Members will vote for who they wish to be Chairman.

Question 2

Well we never, ever, anywhere, hid it. Why should we? Tighty's "Press Release" had 3 signatories, two of whom (I was the odd one out) were listed as Directors of Amateur Poker Ltd.  Surely that's not hiding the status of the Ltd Company? Do you really think we could, or would, hide this, & keep it secret? I have also explained the Terms of Employment of myself, as have Tighty & Mel. I dont take salary because I need to maintain impartial objectivity. I never, at any time, requested shares, but I was asked to take them. This was agreed, as it happens, in the last 7 days in my case. To be honest, I like blondes to know exactly where I am at on potential conflicts of interest, & I have answered every question, & more, 100% openly & honestly. To clarify once more, I am Chairman of the AMATEUR POKER ASSOCIATION TOUR. It's a non-profit making Association. It's owned by Amateur Poker Ltd. A commercial organiation, designed, we can assume, to be profitable. The Association's Chairman is there to represent the Association's Membership. Des D thought he had found someone as Chairman whose motives were above suspicion. He has.

Question 3.

No idea, but I very much doubt it. And in the unlikely event that I am elected, I most certainly shall not accept a salary, even if offered.

Question 4.

I don't understand this question. On Live Events, it wll be a maximum of 10%. (And added value will be in place for EVERY Live Event). The Membership, be it £5 or £10, is for a year, & will include, I believe, the right to play in 30 odd Events. That hardly strikes me as onerous. We are trying to make the Live Events "special", as those that partake will, I hope, soon see. If they are not happy, they won't return, simple as that. And the thing will fall flat on it's face.

Question 5.

No idea - TV Coverage has not been agreed for Season 1. But it will remain an APAT fundamental that EVERY APAT Live Tourny will have added value. That, in itself, is something I'm pretty pleased about. I have played in less than a handful of Tourneys this year that had added value. And certainly not for a £75 entry fee, plus or minus a bit of Rake.

Hope that clarifies things for you, if not fire away, I'm on the APAT case all night by the looks of it!

trouble is mel, you can't deal with it on a case by case basis. generally I find all players are "making a fortune" unless they want something, then they're "scraping a small profit" everyone's a pro and no-one's a pro. I think by making it members only and keeping the buy ins low(er) you won't have to say "NO PRO'S" because the real pro's won't be interested, and even if the odd name does turn up the amature is getting to take them on in their own finacial teritory rather than the pro's.

ACE2M

The initial post does say 'Amatuer Poker Limited is a commercial entity' quite clearly.

I for one have no problem with an organisation that makes a reasonable profit, as long it does what I expect it to do for me. I suspect, in short-term at least, that APL's profits may fall short of reasonable if you think of the work required to get something like this off the ground.

We won't be dealing with it on a case by case basis but there maybe a few players who need a bit of clarification and we'll help anyway we can

yes it sure does, but the website doesn't take us to amatuer poker limited, it takes us to APAT, which according to tikay is entirely non-profit making.. so I think it makes Ace2M's post valid.

This surely means that any profit made from the APAT will be staying in the APAT for the betterment of the players and not to buy the director a new ferrari right?

After they have paid APLs fees...

i do not begrudge anyone making a living particularly people i have some even if it be slight connection to.

i assume profit will be garnered from online rake and sponsorship from pokerstars.

Thanks for the detailed reply tikay.

I'm off down the pub so will catch up later but i am not suggesting an intentional deception is taking place but is certainly not clear to the average reader.

I really struggle to understand how your position will be workable as it appears you will be fighting on behalf of players against a business which effectively owns the organisation and how you can have say over a matter which may financially detrimental to the business. You are a businessman not me so i may be way off.

Mel

Thanks for your reply and I wish you all, all the best in this project

Thank you its much appreciated

Some internet pro's may have never played in a casino before.  Some amateurs may have been going to the casino and playing in Live games for the last 30 years.   I think in the case of the amateur, they would have a greater advantage over the internet payer.

Could there be a case whereby the internet pro could enter or if a pro had held a casino/club membership for less than 6 months he would be eligible to enter.

What about Students who are on a gap years or taking a year out from study.  Would they be classed as temporary Pro's?

These things came into my mind while out a run this evening, they are probably crap ideas  :D

Amateur Poker Limited.

There has been a good deal of information posted here, and at www.apat.com, on the Amateur Poker Association & Tour.

Let me clarify some details on its holding company, Amateur Poker Limited.  There are areas that I cannot be too specific about, I will point those out and if you are uncomfortable with that, then you must make a choice whether to join the APAT or not.

I set up APL in late 2005, with the idea of bringing together individuals with excellent poker and business experience, with the objective of launching the Amateur Poker Association & Tour.

Tony, Mel and Richard have explained elsewhere how and why they are involved.

On the 'business' side, there are 4 individuals with very 'hands on' roles in the running of APL.

I am MD.  I have 15 years of experience of working for blue chip businesses - all household names.  During that time I have controlled budgets and done deals totalling close to £1bn.  I have worked within the retail, broadcast and gaming industries.  I will not go into the who as it is not essential for this post.  The point being, I have a tremendous amount of commercial experience to bring to the party in support of our Members.  This year alone I have:

- delivered a business plan that has received total backing.

- delivered six incredibly talented individuals who are effectively working for nothing at this time.

- delivered a contract with PokerPlayer magazine which will guarantee the APAT and its members high profile coverage for the next year.

- delivered a contract with PokerStars.com which guarantees an additional 37% to 77% in prize value associated with every live tournament we run.  As part of this our organisation will have a presence on the PokerStars.com website (details being finalised).

- delivered a set of rules that have been signed off for use in a BCA approved casino.

- delivered an excellent venue for the inaugural event, who are as excited about holding an APAT event as you are about playing in one.

- delivered a website that has been put together with a great deal of attention and accuracy, that members should be proud of.

- have negotiated a deal that should see the APAT advertised heavily within a premium high street retailer during the key christmas gift buying season.

- am in discussions with a number of parties with regards to potential TV coverage of later APAT events.

- have concluded a deal and sold a modest percentage of APL to a venture capitalist which values the business well into six figures and give us an excellent marketing budget for season one.

I do not come cheap and I do not get involved with businesses who do not turn a profit. 

Will that profit be at the expense of our players?  No.  Will any member of this team see a penny within the next 36 months, high unlikely.  Will the players benefit.  Yes, you already are from the above deals.  And that is the start of what we want to deliver for you. 

Who would you want to represent you in discussions with the major gaming organisations?  Because they are not in the non profit business as we all know.  Do you fancy it ACE2M?  Do you want to step forward to represent these players?  Do you have the experience in negotiating at this level?  Do you know somebody who does?

I shall leave the rest of the board nameless.  However, the remaining three directors of APL, there are seven of us in total, are a Finance Director of a very well know international business, a Head of Internet at one of the World's best know retailer's and the Managing Director of one of the UK's premier outside broadcast companies.  All working to make the APAT work, primarily for you. 

That is the calibre of team required to make this work, because it has been tried before and failed before.  Perhaps those initiatives were not run as a business?  I'm going to scratch my head for a while now and try to figure how a non profit making business is going to be better for our players.....

Regards,

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com

Any idea on venues that will be part of the tour?  Just curious if any are planned to be near me (Bracknell - Reading perhaps?)

Also, do you need seperate membership for the Stars tourneys?  I see there is a seperate sign up bit for it.

Sorry if these have been answered already :)

This thread is not quite going the way we anticipated. I still have to answer lots of your questions - structure, clock, reg fees, da de da de da, & I will. But we seem to have got into "profit", so here's my take, & my apologies for dealing with it generically.

Firstly, to see it in context, please read this.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=13129.new#new

And, in particular, this......

Everyone will be "meeted & greeted" when they arrive on the 23rd. Everyone will be issued with a name badge, bB style - we want everyone to know each other, get on, have a fun day. Name badges help in this respect.

ALL our Live Tourneys will start & finish at civilised "worknig peoples" hours.  So, for Event 1, we start at 3pm Saturday, & finish around Midnight. Day Two, start similar time, should finish mid-evening, time for players to get a good nights sleep before work the next day. Those that wanna stay behind & chill, or play a little cash, fine, we can & will.

Our comps WILL start on time. BANG ON TIME. Amsterdam style. It's my pet hate, why do Live Events never start punctually? Our scheduled breaks will be EXACTLY the advertised duration. !0 minutes for the intermediate breaks, 1 hour (I think) for the main break.  A plasma screen will "count-down" the breaks, & "shuffle up & deal" will be TO THE SECOND when they should be. No messing.

All those returning for Day Two will be invited to join Des, Tighty & myself, as guests of APT, to have Sunday Dinner, & a chance to "lighten the mood" & relax the players before they commence battle for their prize, & EPT seat.

A set of APAT Rules will be available, so there are no misunderstandings. Anyone can have a copy. APAT staff (myself included) will be on hand throughout to clarify these, & any other APAT related queries that may arise.

We will have Final Table Commentary, Thomas Kremser style. The players will all  be individully introduced pre-Final. One or two Celebs will be on hand - Jonny Gould & Dave Compton are amongst those planning to be playing Event One - & one of us (not decided who yet, depends on availability) will do the Final Table Commentary. Personally, I am hoping Jonny Gould gets knocked out the comp so he can do the commentary - he really is a top "pro" with a microphone in hand at public events. But he tells me he intends to win the event! Bully for him.

A proper prizegiving.

When I am in Denmark, Sweden, Norway, & many other countries, it's customary to give a little round of applause to those who bust out. Many think this is funny, usaully the "usual" cynics & knockers, but it's genuine, sincere, well-intended, & really rather nice. I'm hoping the APAT Members do this, & I shall encourage them so to do. Because it's nice, & we want everyone to enjoy themself. I know, laugh all you like, but this is my dream, & it either happens, or it does not, but boy oh boy, the grand plan is for Members to have a ball, & I assure you they will. And if it goes wrong? So be it. Failure I can cope with, not trying I can't.

That's just a pencil sketch of my thoughts, hope & dreams for APAT. But you get the drift.

So, there it is in a nutshell. It's an attempt to make poker more enjoyable, fulfil the dreams some of us have, be "comfortable". Comfortable includes physically - a bit of elbow room at Venues (why do we always have  be squished up"?), & mentally - there will be no intimidating behaviour, because we will enforce penalties. A fun day, no more, no less.

Now, if, in providing that, someone makes some money, why is that so bad? Almost every item in the list I reproduced above has been asked for by someone, at some time. Earlier starts. Punctual starts. Consistent Rules. A bit of dinner, on the house. (Or, if you prefer, out of the Reg Fee & Membership). Players actually - shock horror - "meeted & greeted" (theres the Jen language influence coming through). Met with a smile - remember smiles? "Thanks for joining us, come again". Are these values that bad?

I've had a couple of PMs today suggesting I'm a soft old fella, "nice" is not cool, see? Well there you go. They gave me a clean sheet of paper, & I drew my dreams on it. We are going to try it, fiddle with it, change things, & have a wonderful series of Live Events. I believe those that play - & it looks like there will be many - will have a grand day. So why is it such a problem if they are charged a bit of Rake, & a tinsy winsy Annual membership Fee, in return for that experience? I'd pay a tenner in every single Tourney I play if I was looked after better, I truly would.

So, serious question, if it's as good as I think it will be, is it so bad that someone makes a few bob out of it?

As to the suggstion that we kept the profit motive quiet, well, no answer really. I have Posted at length today, & told you everything.

Will DesD get a Ferrari? Maybe, but I don't really care to be honest - I just want to do my bit to improve Tournament Poker, as I know it. And I think, together, we can. Would you not love to have been offered that scenario - "here you are, help make it a better experience"?

OK, I better look at answering some more questions now.

But meantime, please give some thought to the Positives, the last few hours seems to have been all negatives, & the idea of a great day or two's poker seems to have been submerged.  I am absolutely sure that nobody will leave the Broadway unimpressed after Event 1. Hold me to it, & you'll be all right.

Um, just joined, but I didn't have to enter any details about myself other than my Stars ID.  How do I/you know that I'm a member?  Do I get a confimation email somehow?

Yes same here?

Hi Silo and Tractor,

For clarification, when you finalise payment through PayPal, you are returned to a confirmation page on the APAT website, which confirms your Membership.  Your email address acts as your membership reference.  So you are both confirmed Members of the APAT.

Thank you both for your support.  We will be in touch with tournament details in the near future.

Regards,

Des Duffy
Managing Director
Amateur Poker Limited

des@apat.com

The Season One Venues are still being finalised. We do have one Venue in mind that is about an hours drive from Reading, but it's still to be confirmed, we have concentrated on getting Event One "just so" so far.

Venues are tricky, & there are a limited number that meet the criteria - Licensed, "want us", (& I do mean "want us", because they have to go through some hoops), adequate size (which is, well, who knows at this stage?), & so on.

Our Irish Event wll be in Dublin, by the look of it, we are still working on venues in Scotland & Wales - not easy - & my problem!

Mainland Europe is easy, they have different regulations, & plenty of much larger Venues, as the EPT has shown, we are spoilt for choice really.

What will be will be, but we are going to have a real good go at making this kite fly. I believe that a succesful Event One will make all the difference & we intend to deliver.

Tony Kendall,
Chairman, APAT.

(I keep forgetting my "signature", sorry!).

This sounds sooo cool the way tikey described it. Hope I can make the first one in Brummie!

Lovely, cheers for replying and I wish you all the best :)

Tikay, we do share your dreams.

Who gets the reg fee though? See pm

Excellent idea and all the best with it.

I joined using the pokerplayer promo code and my poker stars id for a fiver. The Paypal reciept says 'Mem002'. Others I know have joined and are a 'Mem001'. Whats the difference? Apologies if you've already answered this!

Cheers,

Rich

Ok heres a positive, I'm positive it's going to be great.

Throughtout my life, when conducting business deals or making agreements with my friends, I didn't ask or need to see every little detail in writing, I didn't look for hidden agendas. I trusted them.

Shakespeare said "He that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him, but makes me poor indeed"

I know Tony very well, and ol Shakey might have written that with him in mind. He would never knowingly be involved in something that was detrimental to anyone. If he says it's on the level, thats good enough for me.

the positives are apparent, its the negatives that need(ed) pointing out/clarification

You should be elated you dont just have a site full of yes-men . I expect all the people that are eligible to play are happy to be able to ask questions/bring up issues without it being considered "negative". Both sides will be the stronger for it once all the concerns/Q's have been ironed out.



Des,

any chance you might consider setting up a "unrecognised person who makes money from poker" tour? I'd love to play in that =)

 :goodpost: ;iagree;

We can play heads up for a tenner at my house if you wish. We'll get Tikay round to mix the drinks...

I am going to have my pennyworth on this, be amazed everyone I don't do serious posts and this will be the first and last that I write ( i do serious in work all day)

1) For £10 what do we have to lose?

2) Someone has put a lot of thought in to this and has come up with a cracking business plan, I say business , because thats what it is, why worry if it's profit making if I / we get added value, and someone to represent the small stakes player, Being a pragmatist I love stuff like this and would run with this any day.

3) The professional issue can be overcome as the ' so called' professional players who would want to play in this type buy in are not true professionals IMHO, so Byron, War and Red no probs!!

4) I have joined and expressed an interest in playing the first comp, a Welshman winning an English tourney, now that would be something to complain about   ;D


5) Oh Booder   :redcard:

i have made a member did not get any id from apat or email comfiming i have made a member just the paypal transaction id is this right ?. and i am holliday when you reg for the tournement will have to sneek out find a internet cafe to reg for the tournement promised the girlfriend no poker when we or on holls (of the card type) before you all start

make a sentence.................................freezes over  hell  when

Totally agree!!!

I cant wait to get my teeth into this, And I wish the organisers all the very best in this venture and you have my whole hearted support.

mem001 full price membership
mem002 pokerplayer mag code membeship
mem003 online membership online

Thanks for clearing that up! Appreciated.

Thank you Ironside


Everyone, the feedback has been sensational whether good or questioning. I love all of it. Thank you. Gives us every opportunity to look at improvements and new ideas.

We'll go away and consider everything and if there are changes to be made we'll change it and let you know.

For example to answer bigal who is on holiday when sign up occurs, I am unsure personally of the wisdom of a sign up frenzy at midnight on 31-08-06 for 120 or so seats. I am going to look at other options. Again we will let you know

Thanks Jay, & I will reply to your very kind & thoughtful PM shortly, you'll understand that today has been a little hectic.

I am delighted - absolutely - that the blondes know me well enough to speak their minds, & what is success if we don't endure a little grief along the way?

By "negatives" (in the last few hours) I meant that there seemed to be some sort of temporary fixation with profit making, which was spreading like a grass fire, and even more alarmingly, a suggestion we had "hidden" that aspect.

And whilst that was going down, I'm thinking, "is it me out of step, or the others?", because even at my ripe old age, I see this as something a bit special, but I guess it's human nature to look at the downs, rather than the ups, as it were. (The "pencil sketch" thing).

Oddly, it seems to have turned round again the last hour or so. Like the tide, it ebbs & flows!

Does everyone else have to bow now that you're a director????


On a serious note, I must add, I'm really looking forward to this, and I know a few creases will have to be ironed out, but I do hope you guys can do this well.

 ;goodluck;

Tikay,

no worries

Do you see where the profit questions were coming from? The general assumption is that if an organisation is set-up with the intention of being a players organisation, its not going to be one that is designed to make a profit (ala the World Poker Organisation) for the organisers

When it came to light that it WILL be generating a profit for the organisers, thats where the whole questions I believe stemmed from......it was in no way to intimate there was a usurious side to the whole scheme (or at least, I am 99% confident of that)

The company makes money, most people (!!!) get something out of it, now everything is out in the open its easy to see what a great venture it is for all concerned. A win-win

I pretty much said all I can think of, and I managed to bump up my post count some, so its a success on all counts

I think it's in a lot of people's nature to question.

In many respects it also seems a bit too good to be true:

Better comps
free food
added value
etc

and the cost to us? £10 a year (assuming you normally pay rake).

If a man in the street said he could do all that for a £10er you'd think he was mad!

The only catch seems to be that the events maybe over subscribed - some people may join ad never get to get in one.

As the association grows this could be a real issue.

I'm sure the assembled brains can sort it out though :)

Give me a UK venue that can hold several hundred please!

This assembled brain is struggling with that!

Now look what you've done - called me a Director, after I've just spent x hours telling everybody I am not!

Buy you may continue to bow.

Tony Kendall,
Chairman, APAT

OK here goes, my first thought was if it's good for Tikay it's good for me.

It has now been 12 hours to digest all the information and have thought of nothing else (sad aint I) As stated in one of my earlier posts, I am extremely interested in this as I too was trying to organize a non-profit making poker association for players, clubs and GC, but not getting very far. Tikay was aware of this a long while back, when the uniform rules cropped up again.

Now this is my own opinion and no-one elses and I just hope I don't fall out with blonde on this issue as I love it!!

The foundation and the principle of an association for a number of reasons is paramount and Tikays (possibly Mels and Richards (I don't know)) interest is 100% genuine and done for the right reasons. I can even understand the members fee (but not the juice on it all be it 75 pence) It is not the juice that is the problem, it is the implication it will have across the board from casino to casino. Making the members fee £11 and £6.75 juice would be fine. Therefore giving you £7.75 instead of £7.50 LOL, this would then be within the current boundaries of the GC.

My problem arises with a few things.

Sponsorship is bad for an impartial association

All players including Pro's should have a voice

A limited capacity comp for members is a bad idea, and will upset some members on a few things.

Charging Juice at a venue that NEVER charges juice (and I am still unsure who will recieve the juice) This worries me 2 ways:

If it is for the Casino, then the players have not benefited at all and will now risk having to pay reg fees in a place that swore never to charge them.

If it is for APAT or Amateur Leisure ltd (or whatever it is called) then a whole new twist in my book has arisen. This is worse than opening an illegal cardclub as some business man has engeniously come up with a plan to earn money from a venue that already supplies a licensed premises, house dealers, a database of players that will now want to play in their local, but will get charged a tenner for it. WITHOUT ANY RISK TO HIMSELF!!
If it is for the latter, does that mean that places that already charge a reg fee will charge a double reg fee or will the casino have to forfeit their charge. Or will this be limited to places that don't at present charge a reg fee?

There is an arguement to say the reg fee will go back in added prizes, but wont that come from the sponsors, as every prospective member will know that getting these new amateur poker players to sign up to pokerstars to get cheaper membership or other benefits. What a coup!!

Once again I feel that those who love the game, get used to make other people rich.

I may have missed the mark completely in which case I am truly truly sorry and will take back everything I have said. But I cannot help thinking that some clever dick has come up with a new way of extracting money from poker!!

Rant over Sorry

It will be good I am sure.  Hopefully this can act as a foundation for players to reach the big time.  It is a great idea, in almost all other sports there are staircases of talent that provide a platform for the talent to rise to the top. Why not in poker as well.  The APAT will be that staircase.  I would love to play in it at some time in the future.  Very best of luck to all those involved   :)up

To quote the bit I left out of that message:

I don't envy you!  :D

Tightend,

this is what I intend to do when I set up the Unknown Poker Professionals Tour:

For the remaining Poker Championships,  you will hold regional qualifiers with delegates at each venue to enforce the APAT/UPPT ethos. Each venue will hold 100 or so players, and there will be as many venues as is needed to fit all the players in.

At each venue, the players will play down to whatever the capacity of the casino where the final is held, divided by the number of qualifiers.. so 10 qualifiers, host casino can hold 150.. each tournament plays down to 15 people

The chip counts are bagged and tagged, and then they all convene at the main casino at a later date to play it down to a finish in a 2 day affair.. with the blind structure following on from the qualifiers (aggregating the blind level of each qualifier to ensure a fair blind restart)

Normally I wouldn't divulge such sensitive information, but as our respective tours are non overlapping, I feel its ok to share the genius ideas

1.The Association is sponsored by PokerPlayer . This gives it in exchange for that sponsorship coverage very month for the next year, raises the profile of the Assocaition and brings forward the day that it will be listened to. This in no way introduces any absence of neutrality to the association

The tour is sponsored by PokerStars, who add value to the comps


2. Amateur players have no collective voice worldwide, some Pro organisations have been formed in the US. APAT is a start to give this broad and amorphous group of players a collective voice AND their interests are likely to be very different from that of the Pros.

3.How do we come up with an unlimited capacity event?

4. The Broadway does not charge juice. The juice will be going to APL (120 x £6.75 lets say) on this occasion only and will pay for, for example, name badges, lunch for all finalists with tikay etc, welcome packs, trophies/mementoes...just some examples off the top of my head

For Event 2 onwards APL will receive none of the juice because almost every other venue takes the juice, so it is unreasonable to say that APL will be benefitting from lets say £800-1000 every event Gross profit.

This is seperate income from membership fees, which goes towards the costs and running of an effective players association


In no way shape or form is this an attempt by ANY of us to take advantage of any player or member.

 :D brilliant stuff

do you need a media director?

I have recruited BoltPP as Media Relations, his discretion and conforming manner are essential to smoothing over the rough passages in that department

For Customer Liasons Officer I recruited puzzler from the WSOP thread.. his diplomacy and tacit nature can only add to the overall experience of the UPPT

I will handle all the monetary affairs, so if anyone sees t0tall3d playing 200/400 NL, you know your monies are in safe hands!

best wishes

Jay

Director of Operations

UPPT Ltd

thank you, I wish you all the best in your new venture

I do think you are discriminating against known professionals though, but now is not the time to quibble. Who decides who is known and who is unknown? We all now know you through your PHA threads so you are not unknown.

Its a difficult one

"Now do I see where the profit questions are coming from?". Well, no, not really! As I asked earlier, (nobody replied), what's the problem with profit, if we get what we want?

"when it came to light" & "now everything is out in the open"......Again, you've whooshed me, I'm afraid. At what stage did we hide it? The very first Post had "Director/Managing Director, Amateur Poker Ltd" on it! More to the point - & this would always be my way of thinking through these, to me, insoluble conundrums - WHY would we (attempt to) hide it? Because we could keep it a secret for ever? I think not.....

Anyway, it looks like we have reached the same view - "it's win-win" - albeit we got there by very different routes.

It's been emotional, as that young handsome guy on 425 says.

1. The Tour may be sponsored by pokerstars and so they should add value as every member is encouraged to sign up

2. Shouldn't it be both pro and am even though each has a different requirement, the amateurs should out number the pro's but at least they have a say, there is nothing in this country

3. Exactly, why is there even a comp ??? The Tour bit baffles me

4. Thats just taking the pee out of a casino that is proud not to charge. So if it was walsall there would be no meal, trophies, name badges etc

I can understand the membership thing and agree with a membership fee

And I am by no means saying that YOU are taking advantage?

I'll say what I think below the second quote:


sorry, that came out completely wrong. Its the notion that as an organisation for players, the assumption (at least on my part) would be that money made goes back into that organisation. At least, that is how it was for me.. because my only other exposure to stuff like this is the WPO thingy... so its easy (although its wrong) to just compare APAT to that and assume that it will be the same.

Once it became clear that it is being operated differently, I have no problem whatsoever with someone making money from this.....its not like its one directional.  I just re-read the quote above and it certainly looks like there is an underhanded accusation of illicit behaviour going on! I apologise for that, and its certainly unfair to make comparisons to another organisation and expect yours to operate the same.

Win-win

1. I don't think we disagree dik9

2. Personal view, I beleive it is a forlorn task to get one body to represent the issues pertinent to both ams and pros. Willing to be proven wrong though

3. To offer players maybe new to the live game or on a limited bankroll the chance to play well structured tourneys with considerable added value in the right environment

4. The Broadway and the GC are happy and approve our plans. Might have heard from the Broadway if they thought we were taking the P. If it was at Walsall everything would be provided but at a loss to the APL.

You said that you thought that it was a way of "some clever dick wanting to make a quick buck out of poker"

I was merely saying that your possible view was completely erroneous

Whatever teething problems there are or corrections that need to be made, our intentions are honourable towards our members

Never doubted you sir :D

Nobody replied to my question asking whether I am considered to be a "pro".

I get a living (just) presently from playing lower limit cash games and tournies online and I am moderately successful
betting on sports.

 Unfortunately I have to pay the bills and that has so far prevented me from moving up the limits.

But to me that is way better than working even if I put in 60 hours per week.

So am I welcome to play in these tournies if I wish to or not ?

An answer would be appreciated.

I quite agree :)

(Hopefully) It's a way for the small time player to get a bash at the big events.  There's no way I'm forking out loads to play in a major event and the chances of qualifying online is generally slim to none so hopefully this will be a great thing.  It's still a bit out of my price bracket to pay for a tourney but I appreciate that if you want to play with the big boys, you do have to dip into your pocket - you can't expect everything on a freeroll :D  and as mentioned by someone earlier, it's more of a level where it can be a treat to yourself rather than a weekly bill.  If it's not too heavy with people claiming to be amateurs when they are poker pro's then it will be great for people like me and I'm looking forward to having a bash :)

Well, I am glad that's cleared up. Next!

OK, I'm going to address the Structures now. Give me a few minutes, another War & Peace on way......

Q. Am I a pro?

A. Well, honestly the only person that can answer that is yourself.  If your main method of income is playing poker and you don't hold a regular job, then yes, of course you are, why wouldn't you be?  You only have to be honest with yourselves - do you consider yourself a full time poker player?

Wow, all these postsI think I, for one, will wait to see what we are left with when the dust settles, some of these questions are really interesting and it will be just as interesting to see what tinkering will be done to make it a smooth machine.

I am in a similar situation, I woulkd like an answer too.

Ps, only 60 hours? You lazy bleeder!

Sorry there was no reply earlier 9and you RED DOG too)

Under the current definition we would class you as a pro. However, many posters on this thread have raised issues about our definition and the difficulty of enforcing it.

With that in mind we are going away to think about alternatives.

We will post again on this, amongst other issues, when we have taken the feedback away and digested it

Do the events have to take place in a casino?

Would it be possible to hire, say, a big hall so more can attend?

Or is this prevented by the gaming board?

Dear Sirs,

Firstly may i congratulate you on the launch of this enterprise, and wish you every success for the future.

I do however have one major concern, namely that the members of a fine organisation such as the PRO have been barred from entering your competitions.

As you are no doubt aware, PRO membership has dramatically increased over the past 18 months to levels that far outreached our expectations. To ban us is harsh to say the least especially as you want people to feel comfortable at your events ... i can think of no morale boost better than the ocassional AYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR from a PRO .

I hope you will reconsider your stance and show some loyalty to an organization that is considerably further advanced than yours at this stage, and that leads the way in supporting winning players and consoling the unlucky losers with equal measure.

I await a response with genuine interest.

Yours.

Colchester Kev
Founder & President of the PRO

What about tables, chips, dealers, floorstaff, etc?

Those board members have to earn their keep somehow :D

They can work for free and be damn well grateful...


(err bugger! guess that ones out then?)

The venue has to be licenced by the GC

Upfront costs of doing this? let me give Mr Yong a call!!

Professional Railbirds are exempt from our professional player regulations. I look forward to welcoming you all to our free buffet events.

P.S do you need a media director?

Another point that has not been brought up as far as I am aware is the difference between "online pros" and those who make their living at the live game.

The live venue "pros" salivate at the thought of some juicy "online pros" venturing into their arena.

There is an enormous difference between the two disciplines and many successful live players are hopeless online and vice-versa.

Just another thing to consider.

Kev and free buffet.

Membership fees going up next year are they :)

"Poker Association collapses as buffet costs soar"

Not having anything to do with this, but I can see that the diff between online and live pros is zero?

thanks, I will consider this too. I haven't so far thought about drawing a distinction to be frank

Sorry Karabiner. I promised to answer every question, & I will, but I keep getting sidetracked by all sorts of strange diversions.

In my opinion, FWIW, I don't consider you to be a Pro in the sense that you cannot play APAT Events. TightEnd & I disagree here, but no matter, it's ultimately for you to decide in the first instance. You do Poker, AND Sports Betting - right? So your living does not come entirely from Poker? In which case, it's my view you are cleared to play. The likes of Julian Thew are what I consider to be real Pros - he has, in effect, guaranteed income from his Sponsor, like £x00k per annum in guaranteed Tournament Entry Fees.

Contrary to what one of my colleagues has said tonight, it's my view that we want you to make that decision, using what has been formally (formally, not formerly!) stated, & common sense.

But from the weight of questions on this matter, we will see if we can define it better. Clearly, Des, Tighty, & I, need to see if we can make this easier to clarify.

But for now, if I were you, I'd consider myself APAT eligible.

It would be lovely to see you there, whatever, because I think you'll find it's going to be an excellent day.

Red-Dog next, THEN the Structures missive!

Apologies for "crossing" TightEnd, but we are both big ugly boys, & there is no harm in differing opinions. Awkward one, though.

Why not say open to non sponsored players?

dik9, you talk a lot of sense...sometimes! not often, just sometimes

Karabiner, I apologise. You can see we are wrestling with this stuff. We'll try and define it better asap

Yep, I agree Graham.  I am not in a position to play them right now in more than one way. I don't have the money and secondly, I don't have the skills.  But one day I will have.   I think it gives the ordinary player who doesn't have a big BR the opportunity to play against the well known players.  Who knows this may provide the stepping stone for the next big name in poker.  I am not into hero worshipping players, we are all capable of winning, only some of us have learned how to do this and some of us have still to learn it.  This series will help with that process.

No apology needed, IMO there is a great deal of grey area between sponsored pros and those who grind out a living.

I don't really believe you need to exclude all of them from this.

Hmmm, I can see this 'Pro' distinction is going to be a headache for APAT to define. By some of the descriptions I would be dissallowed as for a part of the year my sole income is from poker (when not receiving Uni grants, loans etc.) but under NO circumstances would I ever describe myself as a pro?!

Also, taking Karabiner for example, I have no real idea how much he plays or how well he does in all honesty, but saying that he can play as he also does sports betting confuses me, James also sports bets so does this mean that he would also be allowed?!!

I think the whole 'amateur' player needs defining, as I seem to have very different views of what is one, and what isn't!

I don't want to decide if I'm eligible, I'm bias. I want to be told

As I said, Des, Tighty & myself will, in the light of feeback today, try & define it better tomorrow.

However we define it won't change the fact that, in my opinion, those who set out to have a good day, will have a good  day. That's my job, to make sure they do. I'm confident they will. Very.

OK, Red-Dog next (I keep saying that!) , then structures....

This looks like a definitive description, as long as we know what "sponsored" means  ::)

You want to be told? Well let me deal direct with Mrs Red, then you will have to do as told. I gather she wears the shoes in McCready Towers.

Do you have any other form of income at all, Tom? When did you last earn any money outside of poker? When might you next?

Hopefully, we will have some better definition by tomorrow, but this is quite difficult. Camel's Post was the one I liked most on this matter, he seemed to have my "feel" for it.

And we also have the added equation of "online Pros" to sort. Not easy, but I'm sure common sense will prevail. It usually does the trick.

I don't understand the need to exclude anyone.

The big name pros will not be interested in this size of tourney. Even I have better +ve EV if I stay at home and play on-line.

I would like to play because it sounds like a fun event, where I can meet friends and play in a well structured tourney that is not going to take a chunk out of my bankroll.

I can't see how rule can be enforcable and I think it will cause problems. I also don't understand the reasoning behind the rule.

My piece is said, I shall wait until your musings are complete. I will try not to sulk if you decide I cannot play...
 

Jane,

In all honesty, I can't see any yardstick by which you could be classed as a Poker Pro, & I think you are a good example of how we'd define "Amateur". Yes, you play a lot of poker, thats all you do sometimes, but Poker Pro? I don't think so. And that has nothing to do with ability. Do you write "Poker Professional" down when filling in "Occupation" on a form?

I go for regular check ups at the hospital and I always have to fill out a stupid forms.  Do you smoke, drink, etc.  One of the questions is always occupation.   What do Pro Players write down?    Do you get funny looks from people when you say " I am a poker pro".   My family still have the image in their minds of a person in a cowboy hat and smoking a cigar.  I think most people do

Sorry War. Sulking is specifically outlawed by the APAT, it says so in the Rules. Or it will do, by tomorrow morning.

Next case please.

Could you answer the case put forward by the founder of the PRO next ?

I earned about 10% of my total income outside poker last year, when next, who knows?

The point is, I know a lot of real pro's who are on the circuit full time who's primary income comes from companies, hotels, restaurants, properties, etc.

Why is there any problem with pros playing at all?

Is it to do with the added prizes or lack of space?

It seems most of the amateurs on here would love them to attend the blonde bash so they can play against them?

(I just thought that now, so blurted it out!)

Have tried to read through as many of the posts as possible - sunstroke having spent too much time at pool.

So to become a member i pay £10 - all i get for this is the chance to enter events that dont yet exist apart from one event in Birmingham in September (though others to be announced). And even then i am not guaranteed to be allowed to play in this as there may not be enough room.

Most of the players who i want to pit my wits against will be excluded from the competitions as they are deemed to be professional.

Maybe i too, like others am a little too sceptical when i hear of new ventures - to me this just looks like someone trying to cash in on the sudden boom and popularity of poker. As a member of Blondepoker i have been lucky enough to attend both blondebashes. These events provided me with fun and entertainment for a whole weekend, allowing me to play tournaments with some of the biggest names in European poker and WSOP bracelet winners - these tournaments being cheap enough for all to enter with a good structure and all completed within the same day.

The membership costs to being a member of Blondepoker - £0

I wish all those with an interest in this good luck, for me personally though i will wait to see whether this is going to be a long term venture before paying a subscription.

To be perfectly honest, and i hope Red or anyone else doesnt takes this the wrong way....... BUT.... These comps are as already said, for the hobby players, you dont come under the category of a hobby player .. quite simple in your case.

Would you honestly feel comfortable sitting in a comp filled with players that work full time and play poker as a leisure activity and not as a source of financing their families and day to day living costs... self policing is the only way this can really work.

quite simple IMO, if you are waged or unemployed, housewife/househusband you are eligible .... if you dont work and your main source of income is poker then you are not eligible. Thats how i see it.

I have to say I agree. poker is one of the only competive fields where anyone can play against anyone else. Be they old, young, pro, am, male, female, black, white, or Colchester Kev.

Long may it continue. I think this would work just as well if it were open to anyone who wanted to join.

 

Is amateur sulking allowed, is just professional sulking that is outlawed?

I've never been very good at sulking if that helps...

Tikay,

Thanks for the very quick reply and the clarification :-* , I was a little worried earlier when someone made a suggestion that would have meant I couldn't play in this (the only income one)  :o  your head must be spinning by now with all these questions being fired off at you!

Anyway, I love the idea and  ;goodluck;

Are the current rules set in stone or can ideas put forward in this thread be included?   I keep visiting this thread in between winning my cash game on betfair ( had to mention that  :D ) but there are about 20 more pages each time.  I don't know if this has been answered already.

I would be more than happy to accept that, If I could be sure that everyone else in my situation would do the same.

The reality is that a fair number of the runners will be tough experienced players.

I'm really not worried whether I play or not, but I am concerned about the principle.

When signing in at a Hotel last week  I got all daring, & entered "TV Presenter" on the Reg Form. The Receptionist, an East European, barely able to speak English, said, in a flash, "sorry Sir, you have to put your real occupation". Ah well, dream on.

you can only concern yourself with your own integrity Red, Im sure tikay, tighty et al know enough "faces" to ensure that the unscrupulous few that do try and take advantage are discovered and excluded.

Then again I can also see this side of the argument.

It would be a shame if people who can't play much live poker due to other commitments miss what sounds like a great comp as it is full of pros and names.

As i said before, I don't envy you guys!

Now we come to the crux of the problem. What reason are they going to give for excluding them?

Agreed, it's not going to worry me too much if I can't play.

However, it's never nice to be told; 'We're having a party and you're not invited.'

Did you put Amateur Poker Player instead?  ;hide;

thats for them to answer ;)

Remember, only my integrity is excluding me!

Did she know what a retired train spotter was? :redcard:

and the fact that your MAIN source of income comes from poker.

Old train spotters never die, their pencils just run out of lead

What if I say I have gone back to work?

I think that no matter what happens, someone, somewhere, will most likely be excluded for some reason that they won't agree with. It will be hard to be objective and have rules that will be able to define things perfectly without there being some grey areas.

p.s that first sentence is the vaguest thing I've ever wrote.

But how can you let some people play even though their main source of income is poker and not others?

What I'm saying is, honest people will be excluded, dishonest people will play.

Good post Red.

Agreed, self policing only hurts those with integrity. I don't see the problem in allowing ALL poker players to play. I imagine most 'pro's' wouldn't play a £75 freezeout and those that are interested would be there for the social element rather than looking on the field as easy pickings. In the same vein, I posted last year on the need for more freezeouts around the £50 mark  as I know lots of players that haven't got deep enough pockets to play a festival event yet would hold their own in terms of skill. As a hobby player I'd welcome the opportunity to mix it with 'the best' at buy-ins that I can afford and in a setup where half the table aren't soft playing/colluding with each other.

I wish them every success with this. If pro's are going to be barred, can we also bar players who don't bathe before sitting down in a comp?

Will

Nothing is cast in stone Sark, we are listening. The likelihood is we will change/clarify a few things before Event 1, & a few more after it. Nor does it trouble me overly if we have not got it right first time. Thats the beauty of a new venture, you can fiddle with the dials & stuff, & get immense satisfaction from turning nothing into something.

May i direct you to the questions raised earlier in this thread please?

Not at all Ironside...lol...Showering is just fine. The end result (nice clean body) is all we're after. When you're sat at a table and the dealer comments on how fresh you smell it's a sad commentary on the general picture.

Ian, not sure which questions you're referring to mate but I'm buggered if I'm gonna read the whole thread again. Has taken for ever to wade through it all.

:) Will

There were a few unanswered Billy.
Is the membership fee refundable?
Are apat being funded by pokerstars etc.

I have read thru the last few pages and i must admit some comments angered me, i have since had a cuppa, pottered around for a bit and returned all refreshed and yet still angry at a few things.

As it stands the comp at the broadway is value for money and is worth the juice alone to play that single comp (even the backdoor juice as someone put it) so well done all, great stuff.

Someone asked does it matter if someone makes a few bob (or a ferrari), quite frankly yes it does simply because it would be money not going to the members, money taken from the potential prizepool.
Dik9 has put forward the most sense on this thread and i agree with almost everything he has said (and he does know more than most on the subject), a free buffet is not free if it comes from the rake, especially if there would normally be none at all.
I also think the slightly petulant post from DesD says more in it's tone than in it's content but maybe i'm seeing ghosts under the bed here.
As flushy said very early on Tighty and Tikay would be the most vocal on this subject had it been dropped in their laps.

Oh and the 118 thing was borne from another thread.

Enjoy your cuppa (reminds me, I need one too)

From memory there was a mixup where someone registered for the online membership by mistake and that was refunded so they could re-register for the full membership (live). As far as refunding membership fees if you can't get into a comp goes, I can't imagine that's feasible as the fee covers the costs of running the association and staging comps on top of securing eligibility for the tour events.

The tone on some of the posts has been a little off key but I guess that's probably more down to the ambiguity of the written word rather than any ill intent. All too easily to read things too literally and take the wrong meaning (I've had many a miscommunication on msn messenger where a simple statement can take 10mins back and forth to clarify so bear that in mind).

I think the comp/s sound great (The more £50-£100 freezeouts the better!). I'd prefer a one day thing but that's just a personal preference. Not sure I'll be worth me joining as I'm not sure I'd get to play enough of the events (will have to see when they're listed).

Reading all these posts has been quite a task but has been well worth it. This is a great forum. Great spectrum of views/concerns, swift, thorough responses from those in the know and NO abuse!

Will.

I had intended to Post my take on "Structures", but suddenly, it's 03.30 & I have to go to work tomorrow, gotta be in London by midday, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

Thanks for all the feedback, it's been terrific.

Till tomorrow - well later today - night all, & take care.

Cheers Tikay,

safe journey.

H, I've managed to read most of this post as I like this idea, something on this scale will obviously have lots of teething difficulties.
 For £75 I'd love to play any Pro player in a live tourney, be it Edog,Red Dog or Boss Hogg?. The problem with amateur status could be resolved by grading the level of amateur,the top players must wear a large pink domed hat with the word semi on it, or have an acceptance thread, anyone has a problem with someone on the list they complain to TK to decide and if the list is over 120 then have a lottery.

This one is intriguing me, so my previous "last" Post wll have to be my penultimate Post - give us a clue ifm!

LOL you said that a couple of chaps from 425 were playing the comp, i assumed (quite possibly wrongly now i think about it) that they were prebooked.
I can't see famous tv presenters sitting fingers poised at 00.00 01 trying to enter a comp!

120 - 2 guaranteed on-line sat seats = 118 maybe

Well tighty says no online sats, tikays says maybe :D

1) I actually said "they were planning to play"... (my italics). And I said exactly what I meant, & I meant exactly what I said.

2) Until 24 hours ago - no, less - 18 hours ago - the biggest concern I had was "what if only 10 or 20 or 30 people show up?". It never crossed my mind we may sell-out, I'm more one to err on the side of caution. JG & DC were made aware because of their PR abilities, & I asked them both to support if it they could.  They both said they would love to. It's now become evident that we should get quite a few players & the prospect of a sell-out exists. If that proves to be the case, then JG & DC will have to take their chances, along with everyone else.

I actually invited some close friends to play, too. So I have had to say the same thing to them, if it sells out - they will have to get in the queue.

Online Sats. I qualified & clarified the position, such as it exists, subsequent to my initial Post on the matter.

Night all, that really is me done for the day. Well & truly done.

The whole argument of who can enter seems to have missed what I would consider the vital point.

The Pros might want to enter it for the social aspect which is fair enough, but just because they're not entering because of the 'easy money', it won't make them worse players. If the more experienced and skilfull semi-professional type of players enter, it's more likely they will win and less likely that a proper full time, recreational amateur player (say for example, me) will win instead.

Although I would quite like to play against some named players live some time (even online playing against some pros on Full Tilt has been quite cool) I would also like to win - or at least cash - or at least get some points. All of these are less likely the higher the bar is set for who is allowed to play.

If these events end up being dominated by players who already earn £000's a year playing poker then I won't even consider staying with it for a second year. The benefit this tour offers over those weekly games is the added money, the title etc - if I have no chance of winning these I might as well stick to online or, if live, the weekly poker tournaments in casinos.

As I mentioned several pages ago, it should come down to common sense - if somebody asks you what you do, and your natural response is, "I'm a poker player", then you're a professional and shouldn't play. Although the APAT's rules do allow for expulsion, this can only really work by self policing and can only really work if it is left to the amateurs to slug it out.

There are hundreds if not thousands of unknown people earning some/most/all of their money playing poker on the internet. Take someone who loves poker, ain't that great at it, earns say $40K a year. This tourney is so so achingly desirable it's untrue. It's very easy for that person to play and say he's a self employed whatever.... agreed?

Take that same person but he's posted some stuff on Blonde. Maybe a lot of his posts have been trying to help others play better. Now he can't play cos people know he makes some/most/all of his money playing online poker. That just seems unfair to me.

Phil Ivey ain't gonna wanna play this. Hundreds of unknown poker "pros" will. The only people excluded are a handfull of Blondites.

You've got more chance of playing against 'pro's' in your local £10/£20 rebuy than in a £75 freezeout IMO (atleast that's the case in the Midlands). I know for my money I'd be happier playing pro's in a freezeout rather than a silly rebuy where deep pockets count (I'm just anti rebuy comps..personal preference...If I lose my chips whether through bad luck or poor play then I should be OUT, no second chances or 3rd etc.etc.)  Essentially I think the events should be open to all who register. There will be players for whom the comp won't represent value so they won't turn up anyway. For a number of reasons, I don't see that making the events 'Open' would necessarily run counter to the association promoting the interests of the hobby player.

I'm sure this thread will run and run, so that's my two penneth for now.

Will.

Byronkincaid. Apologies for repeating some of the points you made. I was typing reply while you were posting.

Like I said this can only work if it is self policing, and the level this is done will only be able to be measured after the first year or so.

But if the winners of some/all the first year's events are shown to be players who have earnt several thousands playing poker (Hendon Mob Player database for live, Tournament Reporter website and others for online), then this tour is not going to represent value for the recreational, amatuer player - and the semi-professional/professional-in-all-but-name players will be the only ones entering the tour for subsequent years - this will certainly be contrary to APAT's stated aims.

I don't like/play rebuys either

Good point and well made! Time will tell.

Will.

Frankly, I think the only way to resolve the pro/amateur debate is by setting some sort of list of exclusions i.e. if you have won £x in a tournament in more than x occassions you are excluded or a money won limit.  

By the defintion I am an amateur but over the last year (albeit running hot!):

2006  
 22 Jun € 500 No Limit Holdem
Concord Card Casino, Vienna, Austria 1st € 16,390      
        
 06 May Blackpool Championship
£ 1,000 No Limit Holdem
Grosvenor Casino, Blackpool, England 16th £ 1,430            
        
 22 Apr € 700 No Limit Holdem
Olympic Casino, Vilnius, Lithuania 2nd € 6,191  
        
        
 20 Apr € 145 No Limit Holdem
Olympic Casino, Vilnius, Lithuania 4th € 9080  
        
        
 17 Apr Paddy Power Irish Open
€ 3,000 No Limit Holdem
Merrion Club, Dublin, Ireland 10th € 10,000    
        
            
        
 06 Oct European Poker Tour
€ 4,000 No Limit Holdem
Casinos Austria, Baden, Austria 13th € 6,840    
        
        
 15 Jul Thistle Classic
£ 250 No Limit Holdem
Glasgow Berkeley Casino, Glasgow, Scotland 4th £ 1,470

I've also won more than $100k in online tournaments including a 2nd in last year's WCOOP.

I don't think that these tournaments are aimed at me, so the criteria should exclude me.  Players could be excluded by winning a certain amount (gross) over the last year - my suggested figure is €25000.  

This is transparent and clear and anyone entering who has won more than this knows they are cheating.

I wouldn't consider travelling over Europe to play in tourneys that cost thousands amateur poker.

But I am a Compliance Officer for an insurnce company - so I'm an amateur!  Ironically I'm under threat of redundancy - so if I get laid off to I suddenly transform into being a pro?  Maybe if I sign on I can keep my amateur status :D

I'm amazed at the number of decent poker pros (whether or not they consider themselves pros or not) that actually want to be a part of an amateur event - is it for the easy competition?  This has obviously sparked a lot of debate and I appreciate it's hard to technically define who is a pro.

Are the actual amateurs of the game going to suffer by being a part of APAT?  They are certainly going to have to play against some of the better players in the country.  Perhaps I should stick to my local £50 freezeout once a month.

I don't think a specific amount needs to be set, although it would at least provide a concrete definition. If people can't work out for themselves whether they count as amateur or not they can contact APAT before tournament registration. And if a complaint is made about a player who has entered being a professional I would expect it to be investigated (tax returns wouldn't be necessary as live tournament winnings, and to a lesser extent online winnings are available in the public domain) and then for APAT to use the powers available to them to clear someone or expel them.

I commend you on your commonsense and I would hope that the majority of those players who know that this tour isn't aimed at them (however much value - economic or social - it represents) would have the appropriate judgement to not enter. I don't expect 100% of players in this category to do this, but as long as they are in the minority these tours should still be a big pull for the recreational/hobby/amateur player.

Does anyone know how other sports who have in the past had to make this distinction have managed it? The only definitions I've come across in the past is that you're a professional if you earn all your money from the sport (including sponsorship), and you're a semi-pro if you earn a significant portion of your income from the sport (still depends on the definition of significant) - I would expect both of these groups to be excluded as not being amateur.

Although Tikay has said that it would be okay for me to play, I'm still confused.

I chatted for a while with Byronkincaid at BB1 and we had quite a lot in common, both lower limit "pros"
who have operated successfully online, in his case in SNG's and mine low limit cash and some MTT's.
We were saying how paying the bills had prevented us moving up and building a proper bankroll.

But I also do quite a lot of sports betting mainly on golf which generates about 25% of my income,
although I could possibly not bet for a month or two if I do not find a spot to bet.

Red-dog is similar to me except that he plays almost entirely tourneys and at a higher level.

If you asked me where my main income comes from the honest answer is "poker".
But if I were to sell a property that I have on the market and become financially stable again so that
I did not have to pay the bills from my poker profits that would now make me an "amateur".

Or if Red-dog were to win the lottery and become independantly wealthy then he would be an "amateur" too.

The point is that the definitions of amateur and professional are determined by financial stability.
If you need the money you are a pro, and if you don't then you're not. Playing ability does not come in to it.

I'm still confused.

This does suggest that maybe Doubleups definition incorporating tournament winnings might be the way to go.

If you've won less than a certain amount in the last 12 months before the registration of the first tournament you can enter all the tournaments for the following season (this would stop anybody finding themselves in the position of being unable to enter halfway through the season just because they've won some cash in a tournament).

Karabiner, respectfully, I disagree

I do not think one's bankroll affects the definition of amateur or professional at all

If Mr Poker Pro (unsponsored but no other source of income) wins the lottery he has capital behind him but if he has no other source of income and still plays poker he is still a pro.

However what this thread has established is the many grey areas that we are going away to look at and see if we can find an accomodation for the various strands of thought

I agree with Jon MW’s post,  I think that most of the people that have to ask if APAT is for them already know the answer. Maybe the question should not be ‘Am I a pro?’ but ‘Am I truly an amateur?’

As well as the possible limit on earnings, James put another good idea forward to me last night. To exclude say the top 200 European ranking points would also help towards defining a line, although this doesn’t  exclude all the people that I believe shouldn’t be part of APAT, as some simple haven’t scored enough to be in the top 200 yet, though they undoubtedly will do soon enough.

Well this looks like a great idea and thanks to the organisers for all the prompt responses.  My one big question / concern is:

 - I strongly suspect this will be a quick sell out event.  I have joined and paid my £10, but if I'm not quick enough at keying in my card payment details, or I happen to be in the loo when the buy-in function becomes live, I might not get to play in a single event this year.  Is anything going to be done to address this?  It doesn't seem fair that a lot of members won't get to play the live events after paying their membership fee.

Clearly the pro vs am issue also needs to be sorted, but this has already been covered.  I think it would be good to have an 'annual earnings' approach to this with a cap on the amount you make in any one year from poker defining whether or not you qualify as an amateur.  Clearly this would be very difficult to police, but so would any approach.  At least this would place a clear line in the sand for those who are unsure themselves whether they are pro or not (e.g. RedDog and Karabiner).

I think the buy in is spot on, given it's a main event.  It would be nice to run another tourney the next day, say a £20 rebuy for the players knocked out in the first day.  I'll probably be one of them if i manage to get a spot in the first place, and would hate for my hotel booking for the second night to have been wasted as I'll be travelling up from London.

Cheers,

Joe

doesn't adopting an entry criteria based on any of the following

- career winnings over $xk
- last year winnings over -$xk
- if you are in say top 200 of Euro rankings

risk penalising the successful amateur who might have a full time job and yet have hit any of these crtieria


Do you not prefer merely excluding those who are sponsored pros?

What other ways are there to define entry away from the very grey area of "who is a pro?"

I think it is pretty straight forward, if you pay tax you are an amateur, if not then you are a pro.

Hi Joe


The first point to make is that your £10 is giving you membership of the association. We expect that to bring tangible benfits to you over the first year. It is not £10 merely for the right to play in the comps

It is also a necessary pre-condition of entry into our tournaments though.

We have the same problems that all other events have, the capacity of UK venues which cannot keep pace with demand.

I am on record earlier in this thread as saying I am uncomfortable with a "pop concert" type situation where only those on redial at midnight get seats in the comp. We are looking at alternatives, perhaps a random ballot, to ensure everyone has an equal chance of gaining entry.

If you only include the 12 months prior to the first tournament this will penalise a successful amateur - but only for a year. If they are winning over this amount on a regular basis I'd say they'd have to be classified as a semi-pro at least. And if you did have such a successful year wouldn't you want to build on it by entering more professional tournaments the following year? This may seem odd being able to skip between being a pro and an amateur but I think it leaves a workable solution to the problem and I totally agree now that this should be the way to go.

Barring sponsored players may also have the benefit of clarity but the reason I started mentioning anything about the pro/am debate at all is because the consensus seemed to be heading towards allowing anybody who isn't sponsored - this is an awful lot of people. A large proportion of professionals and I would expect nearly all semi-professional players aren't sponsored. The pros are using their winnings and cash games to enter and the semi-pros their main job. These are precisely the people who I would worry about coming to dominate the tour and who would put off the true amateurs from participating.

just some quick thoughts/observations...

This venture has obviously generated enormous amount of interest & excitement, showing how Tikay & Tighty et al have understood the needs of the amateur & semi pro Poker community in the UK, in fact I think they have been a little caught of guard at how much interest there is, & the amount of debate over certain issues that have arisen. I hope this does not overwhelm them (sure it won't). It seems like the first event will be well oversubscribed, how this effects the rest of the Tour, & how it is handled IMO will be interesting & crucial to its success.

This is all positive, and I can only see the game moving forward over the next few years, as the APAT looks to set the bench mark on how things should be run.

Good Luck guys

i think 27 pages on here and only the odd reply elsewhere says much for this forum/community :D

yeah you are all awkward so and sos!


seriously though, great stuff..we can only improve as a result of this feedback

i love the idea of an amateur league...but I would also love to pay 75£ and play against the pro's...afterall that's when you start picking up some serious pointers.



I think it's a great idea though and will look out for the scottish event.

I just made a steal raise in a sit n go, and busted someone with their AK.

They called me a ****ing amateur. So good news, this means I can play.  :D

 :D   you will try anything to be able to play with the ordinary players tank

I'd love to play against pros too, don't get me wrong, but if I'm entering competitions to try and win a seat to bigger events and it's aimed at amateurs I'm going to be a bit miffed if it's full of people that are just there to make easy money.  Happy to face the pros in the next level up, or even just one or two in this level but I think it would take the fun out after a while if you know that you stand a less than average chance of winning.

 ;iagree;

Playing against better players may bring out the best in an amateur though.  It will also give them a lot more respect from other players  if they have beaten a stronger field.

I once competed in the egg and spoon race at sports day with kids three years older than me.  The extra competition brought about by leg length meant I tried harder and tripped up more people to win.  I like the idea of playing against better people.

Graham makes an excellent point though. 

Believe me Sark, when I play Live, I'm the Live one.

 :D

There's a time and a place for this. An amateur tour isn't either.

Wow, this is certainly a topic that has got peple's attention.

I for one have to say the concept is a great one, there are many varying bodies representing the pro's but nothing for the people like myself and Harmony, who play recreationally for fun and maybe a little renumeration when we get lucky.

Having Tikay as Chair gives the association a known face people can relate to having watched him on TV and, as we know, an honest and straight representative.  Plus having Tightend, Mel and Des at the helm only reaffirms for me that this venture is designed for the players, and not for the benefit of the sponsors.

As to the buy-in for the events, i can only say that i am sure they have tried to strike a balance for players in general, and for a chance to play in this kind of structured comp i think it is a bargain.

I doubt the very calibre of players this association is aimed out will play every event in the tour, and i'm sure it was imagined that amateurs would only travel and play at the event closest to them, so the buy-in for feasibly one major event per year is reasonable.

I can safely say, the only other equivalent event that will cost roughly the same to me an Harmony is BB3.

Good luck to the APAT and the Blondes behind it.

I can confirm this, For a great online player, hes a big live fish!!!

Being totally honest, there are a bunch of internet professionals, making vast sums of money online and yet they are total amateur fish when it comes to playing live.

Its a well known fact that not many people are truly sucessful in both disciplines. And many people have said so in many different threads right here on blonde poker. But when it comes to this thread, nobody is prepared to make a distinction (i think one person has mentioned it but it was shot down).

But then, if you make a distinction here then do you make a distinction between a cash specialist and an MTT pro? I still say that online fishes should be allowed to play as amateurs in a live event. Its a lot easier to make money in the online world than to make a living in the live one. That said, how many would bother with this anyway when there is possibly more to be made over the same length of time online.

I don't count them as professional poker players anyway. They are professional online poker players. Sorry but its true ya bunch of fish! :D

A professional online player, a professional tournament player, a professional cash player - they're still all professionals and not amateurs.

So because I might be a proffessional bridge player I cant play as an amateur poker player?

Thats effectively what you are saying. The difference between online and live is vast.

If you earn an income (rather than a bit of spare cash) from poker then you're a professional poker player.

Internet players may not be in the same league when it comes to a live tournament as they are online but as most recreational players will come into poker from playing online then take the same amount away from their skill and the differential still remains. And would you seriously consider it being amended to an amateur (unless you earn your money online) tournament?

Lets say I earn a living playing Tiger Woods gollf 2006 on the PC (tournaments do exist!)

I do not expect to enter the PGA tour (as an amatuer i might add lol) and get past the first round of qualiying. Why? Because I cannot even hit the ball.

Extreme... I know :)

Also irrelevant, golf on a computer is a fundamentally different game to golf. Poker on a computer is fundamentally the same - as evidenced by the completely virtual poker tables now available which combine both.

Virtual poker tables do not combine both. All they do is take away the need for a dealer. You still have live players with live psycology and basically a fundamentally different game to that of online poker.

Jon, To police this, wont you have to rely on people being honest, and therfore only exclude the honest pro's?

HUH? it's exactly the same game!! just quicker

Ya, I'm convinced pissy online players tell themselves that so they can kid themseles they still rule at "real" poker.  ;ifm;

Yes, you're obviously right. When we are playing online and you make that minimum raise in late position, the twitching of your fingers tells me you have a big pair, and so I fold.

I think the tour is a great idea, but any of thr pro-am distinctions mentioned above would be a nightmare to police.

The answer is very, very easy, as are all the best answers.

Alex's definition of  Professional player for APAT purposes
A player who does not deem it worth their time to play a tournament with a buy-in under £100

Admitedlly this will exclude some people with well-paid regular jobs, and people who are earning significant incomes from online poker as an amateur, but either way it self-regulates itself fantastically and cannot cause any arguments.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the word "amateur" because of it's negative connotations and I believe it may discourage some "amateurs" from playing. For no better reason than they don't like to think of themselves as such.

Doesn't make a difference to me, I've only two criteria for choosing a poker comp to play in.

Either I think it'll be good craic, or I think it'll be good value.

This sounds like both. So they could call it the Cowardly Obnoxious W**kers Poker Asssociation and Tour for all I care. I'd probably still play.

Would anyone be interested in becoming the media director for the COW PAT?

This is true and whatever is put in place could come unstuck if too many pros undermine it by entering (because they probably would get away with it). But if something is defined such as


then the APAT and it's members would have a clear guideline as to who is or is not eligible. This would not stop everyone - online winnings would be harder to reference - but it would make it clear to individuals if they are eligible or not. This would still rely on self policing but it would be a workable solution rather than a free for all (or a virtual free for all if the only criteria was sponsorship for example).

Actually it would only take one...

Alex's solution is the only sensible option.

Except you'd have to change that to read:

<£100 buyin comps with (significant?) added value.

I am optimistic that the APAT has the best interests of all poker players and can only see it's creation as a benefit in the long run. Naturally with the creation of anything new there well be discussion points and initial ideas will be modified according to whatever feedback is given. I do however think the key thing is that Des appears to have put a team together that has a GENIUNE interest in improving things in the poker world for the players.

With regards to this being a cash cow I don’t see this as an issue for sometime and believe a nominal membership fee is reasonable considerable the costs incurred in setting up and running such a venture. Time will tell if it provides value for money, or just a get rich scheme for it's businesses partners but at a nominally cost I'm prepared to back my judgement of the persons involved as generally interested in us the players as opposed to their own personal bank balances. Infact I believe the amount of time certain people will invest in this will far exceed any returns they may receive.

The one issue I do have is who will be playing at these "amateur tour" events. I would like to believe the Camel is correct and common sense prevails but am not so confident. With the added value in these comps it will surely attract some players who are anything but amateurs whether they be f/t pro's or semi pro's. Granted I don’t see the Devilfish being to fussed about playing . Personally have no real issue of who I play against but some amateur players on these thread have already expressed even £75 would be a sizeable commitment from there normal stake. So is it worthwhile them playing such a level if they are merely up against “pro poker players” who see this as a low stake gamble to win a huge prize. I understand the comps are designed to encourage play but where’s the play if you get lots of high rollers playing it as a micro game just hoping to get lucky for the valuable added prizes. I understand any game will have it's loose players as will every game will have it's rocks but the more pro’s/semi pro’s playing this as a small time gamble makes the attractive selling point of a good structured tournament much less attractive.

So will common sense resolve this issue???, granted many poker players have the integrity to say that this tournament is for them but then again many will scream valuooooooo and jump at the chance to of playing in a comp with so much added valuoooooo. I recall reading that Lovejoy and Phil Stein where seen playing in a £10 rookie comp in Luton. Are these guys rookies???. How you define an amateur and a professional is not an easy task and one that will never be approved by all people. For me however I would question if this is truly an amateur association if at the tournament finals I see familiar names of players of frequentantly play the main events (i.e. £1000 plus buyins) at the various festivals around the UK.

Some players on this thread have already mentioned that they think this would be a good tournament to play in because of the social aspect not because of the value. And as Mr Yong has stated elsewhere regarding the APAT tour,


Although the rich business men (and in relation to me this is a lot of people) will still be able to enter an amateur tournament in the same vein, I would be much happier if the seasoned pro/semi-pro weren't as I would prefer the majority of people there to regard this £75 as a significant amount of money and not something that could be gambled every week. In light of Rob's comment I would see the rule regarding people who think a sub £100 freezeout being worthwhile isn't going to work.

If you think they won't play 'properly' they are adding value to you.

For those who think they will turn up seeking the 'value'. The added-value is worth about $66 per player, after $10 juicethats $56 added. Then there is transport to and from twice, or transport and hotel to consider.

How about we define a pro as anyone who can consider value in the above terms, and therefore wouldn't bother anyway. (Even if you took the $66 as pure added - no expenses, that could only be $3-$5 per hour which anyone you would call a pro could 10x online with no trouble)

Don't be paranoid about playing with people who call themselves "pro's" some of the time, but would enter an event like this on the basis of 'value' rather than social reasons. I very much doubt they would make the event much tougher.

Alex B talks sense.

But why are we talking $$? Its ££! (Worth more u see)

Additionally there are only 120 places in the live comp and will clearly be over subscribed by just 100% amateur players. So why should players who make a living from poker, but are not sponsored, be allowed to play even if they claim it's not for the added valuoooooo but just playing for a social side of it. For every professional/semi professional that plays it excludes a true amateur. have 20 pro's play and let's 1/6th of the field.

Without a clear definition of who qualifiers as an amateur and who's a professional it is possible that the whole concept of an association for amateurs and tournaments for them fails to attract those it is intended for.

Hello

Just looking for a bit of clarification on a point I raised yesterday.  I asked whether the events were direct buy in only, and was advised by Tighty that they were.  Tikay later confirmed that there would not be any satellites to the UK based events.

Of course that is APATs decision and I have no quarrel with that, I just wondered if someone could explain to me the reasoning behind the 'no satellites' line?

thanks

Well seeing as they will almost certainlt fill the spaces with direct buyins they have no need to run sats.

but surely that can't be the sole reason for deciding not to run them!?

Maybe not but it's a damn good one!

lol - I will await the official response!

LOL, the official response is yes/no.
good luck waiting......they seem reluctant to address some questions.

Tikay gave a reply to this question yesterday Claire, hope this clarifies it for you.

Thanks Ginger.  Yes, I saw that yesterday, but I still don't understand the reasoning behind 'no satellites' for the UK based events.

The official answer is not yes/no!

The official answer is that there are not online satellites for the uk based events but are likely to be for the European and World events that are likely to have higher buy ins

£75 for Event 1 has been carefully set to be a) affordable to most recreational players as a very occasional rather than an every week expense yet b) to generate a prize pool even before the added value that is worth fighting over

I can tell you from my own experience that a £10 rookie comp at Luton (which i do not play) with say 75 runners makes a prize pool of over £3000 for an average spend of £40 each on a routine quietish midweek night.  The field contains both experienced players and complete rookies. With this in mind I don't think £75 for a competition with added value in several ways is excessive. It is certainly cheaper than the chepest festival event you will find, which I think is correct.

Finally, I don't think we are ducking any questions...the vast majority have been answered. Those issues where there are concerns and feedback we have gone away to consider whether our thoughts need to be modified.

I disagree with using this terminology to define professional, i work 35 hours a week as an importer of fabric from the far east - i pay tax and i play online poker in my spare time. Yet if you look at my record from feb 2004 on thepokerdb.com then yes in my spare time i manage to make a nice income from poker as well - but i'm not a professional. Some might say "semi-pro" but then your entering an even bigger "grey area" as to who gets defined as what and who is legible and who isnt.

I dont envy what definition APAT finally settle on as no doubt someone will be excluded who feels they should be allowed to play whilst someone who shouldnt really be playing does, even more if one of these people end up winning one of the tournaments and taking an EPT or WSOP seat.

Just as with DTD i think this will be an interesting venture to keep an eye on - it will no doubt set a precedent as to the path that poker may well be taking in the future.

Maybe i should read a whole thread thru again before quoting one post as after it there is a suggestion of capping the amount of money a player can win before he becomes ineligable to play. Whilst i think this would be a good idea in principle its going to be impossible to police and you are going to have to rely on the honesty of the players taking part - and if there is a big prize like a WSOP or EPT seat up for grabs for the winner some people may not disclose their true earnings. It also means that the term "amateur" poker tour would be incorrect as some amateurs would not be allowed to play.

Alex B's definition is good but as Bongo says - when there is a $10000 or €10000 seat available to the winner you'll suddenly find that players are more willing to take part in a £75 freezeout. Also as thetank says some people (myself included) enjoy playing poker for the craic. Personally i would play any tournament even if the buy in were only £5 or £10 if it means i get to play something i enjoy whilst having fun - hence why i have travelled to Birmingham and Glasgow to participate in both BlondeBashes.

This might just be the biggest stumbling block for the APAT to actually get around; how do you define who's a pro and who's not?

If it can get around this, it has a great chance.

It's interesting that in most sports/past-times/competitive endeavours, we have very clear ideas and criteria as to who are amateurs and who are not; poker does not seem to fit into that category and is one of the reasons why I do not consider it a sport... yet.

Claw given that the smallest comps you can play in the UK are in most parts £10 rebuys, then a £75 freezeout is highly unlikely to price any amatuer out. It may well price out people who don't play in casino's and stick to the events like in the blonde poker league. However i dont think they are the target of the APAT. Its for LIVE players and as such £75 is well within the budget.


On a side note, anyone else notice it's cheaper to play a £200/£300 local freezeout in a festival than it is to travel to play this £75 comp in Brum  ;scarymoment;

The nearest place to Nottingham that runs a regular £200/£300 FO is Walsall.

Yes, the travel thing is why I probably won't be able to play the opener; I am hoping that the December 'UK Open' will be at a London venue and then I can happily play.

Once you include travel and accommodation, that £75 will easily go over the £200 mark for anyone who doesn't live near the venue.

In essence, if I do pay the £10 it will be a sort of 'gamble' on whether they'll hold an event near enough for me to make it worthwhile. But then, £10 isn't a huge amount on a gamble like that... I am still undecided, but my heart definitely wants to sign up (for whatever that's worth).

we have to hold it somewhere James!

 and of course if an event is local to you you do not have travel and hotel costs!

I don't think that's quite right flushy - the blurb says that they want to attract people for whom this may be their first live poker experience, or did I totally misread that?  ;tk;

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I am not in any way suggesting that £75 for what is being offered is in any way expensive. I am sure I would not be alone, however, in simply not being able to justify to myself spending £75 on a single game of poker.  As I said before, I fully accept it is APAT's decision whether or not they want to run satellites, but I was unclear as to the reason for the decision.  Now I have an answer, that's fine!

A lot has been posted on this thread since i was last on.

The main points seem to be:

Should an organisation for the players be making a profit of the players? I would say no.

How do you define a 'pro' or more importantly how do you stop them entering? Well you can't as such its a bit silly to restrict them from entering the comp.

What do you get out of the APAT as a member? You get the right to play in a selection of events around the country and also you will have you will join a collective voice.

The collective voice? You get a group of people (we don't know who yet) telling your local casino how you want poker to be run. Is a standardised set of rules really that important for a amateur who most likely only ever plays in 1 or 2 venues, it seems to me more like a concern for the pro. I guess thats because the APAT is run by pro's. We will have to wait to see who is brought on board to try and improve grass roots poker. As someone who plays poker on-line, on the circuit and at local comps i really don't see the need for a combined voice for amateurs, when they have problems with something at the casino they just tell the staff, and if its what they all want it's what happens!

The selection of tournaments? Billed as 'good structured comps' i think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would say that a structure missing 150-300 and going str8 from 600-1200 to 1k-2k is a good structure! Personally i would use the term crapshoot. As for finishing at midnight, this could be a good idea, i do not know. People who have jobs don't want to be messing up their bodyclocks playing to 4am so it is probably a good idea. Of course that means you get a lot of players having to hang around for day 2 and getting no money. This of course comes back to the question of why people play them. If its for a fun weekend then i don't think anyone will complain about this. Personally i don't mind playing till 5 am but i don't have to be up on Monday morning.

Deals in the comps? A few pages back it was said deals would not be allowed, that is surely not really in the spirit of the event. Why can't players not chop up their cash and play for the added prize pokerstars are adding? Maybe that is what was meant. If so, good on ya!

And please don't be calling the buffet free if its being paid for out of the juice you take of the players!!! It's not free its just pre paid!!!

I also agree with IFM (uck) Dik9 has made some very good contributions from a wealth of subject knowledge and experience.

 ;iagree; now there's a smiley i never thought i'd use on one of flushys posts!! ;)

I dont think the clock should be much of a concern though - that is easily remedied and i'm sure that when the first event kicks off there will be a decent structure in place. I'd prefer the early finish as most days i have to get up the following morning for work but if its a weekend then i'd rather play as late as possible to get the event as far along as can be so that fewer people have to return on the sunday with the possibility of no reward.

Suppose this thread will be a "watch this space" to see what the APAT will offer to the poker player, recreational - amateur - semi-pro or professional.

James

1. the holding company is profit making, the Association is non profit. An organisation in APL (the holding company) that is generating no profit has no chance to be professional in its dealings with the various stakeholders that it will seek to interact with on behalf of its members...websites cost money to maintain, events cost money to put on etc etc (usually apat will not be receiving juice the venue will, the bradway is an exception). I think you will find that apat offers in time value for money for its members. I am surprised that you with your background think profit is a dirty word. Acceptable levels of profit are the lifeblood of business. Racketeering or anti competitive behaviour clearly isn't. £10 initial fee and then £5 per annum thereafter strikes me as reasonable to cover costs, especially if the association succeeds in effecting change

2. The competitions are aimed at recreational/hobby players and not at pros. Because of the feedback we have received we are going away to readdress the issue of "amateur/pro" and we will let you know what we decide.

3. I believe a collective voice can represent the vast majority of players in this country who are recreational or amateur. How many times have we seen comments that people do not like rules being different across say the same chain of casinos? We can also work with gaming organistations and sponsors towards gaining regular added value for people wherever they are playing

4. The structure. No 150-300 but there is 75-100. No 800-1600 but there is 500-1000 which you never see elswhere. By the time the 800-1600 level is missed players will have been playing for over 6 hours and the average stack will be 60kish. Frankly suggestions that this is a crapshoot demean someone as intellligent as yourself.

5. Deals. This is different. the first three finishers receive gold silver and bronze medals representing if you like the ultimate amateur ethos we see in sporting amateur events. The added value package is unsplittable and the aim is to have a competitive final table through to the end with no one in say 8th hanging on to ladder up for £75 more...play to win!

6. The buffet is being provided free by the Broadway. The players juice is not paying for it. As I said previously the players juice is going to fund other added value items and expenses.







 

TightEnd you go down in my estimations. I had you out as a sensible chap and its been good to read your well written responses to the questions here.

But you've crossed the line by confusing flushy with someone else. At least I assume thats what you did:


 ;scarymoment; ;scarymoment; ;scarymoment;

 :D :D :D :D

So will deals be allowed for the cash prizes or not?

"play to win" - fair enough, but to your average recreational player when they see that the difference between 1st place and 4th place is somewhere in the region of £1800 (using a flat payaout structure of 30% for 1st and 10% for 4th) then this is a substantial jump.

Its been said many times before but at the end of the day its the competitors money that makes up the prizepool, surely its therefore upto the competitors at the end of the day how they want to split it? Yes once the deal has been done then there is still a huge prize for the winner - this should ensure that the tournament is still played properly to a finish rather than people just going all in with any two cards as there is nothing left to play for.

i have not really posted on this until now because everyone has been throwing questions up in the air which is to be expected.
the biggest debate seems to be on the "who is classed as a pro?" i think  anybody who is sponsored is obviously a pro. alot of the pros that aren't sponsored but play all the circuit events, EPT, WSOP aren't likely to want to bother.

i don't think you can say if you have won £x,xxx then you are a pro. just one example of that is john mcgrane who posts on here as cupcake. i don't wont to go around talking about john's finances ( to be honest i don't know anything about them ) but john was fortunate enough to finish 18th in last year WSOP and won $350k. john has put most of his winnings on buying a house for himself and his family. he does not even talk about his outstanding achievement as he is a very modest guy. John still works and still plays poker for fun. infact we both play at the same level buy ins, therefore john would be excluded from entering an event because he was fortunate to have a great result. now i know john wont mind me saying this this but he is an amateur poker player.

i cant remember who said it now i think it might have been flushie but the best way to decide who is a pro is to look at the European rankings. if a player is in the top 200/300/400 or whatever then they obviously play alot of ranking/ high buy in events and should be consider "a pro".

going back to APAT, i think in large it is a good idea and the way he runs this forum( with help from others, i know) then i couldn't think of anybody better to run it than tikay.

i think there are a few things that need to be ironed out but that is normal for a new organisation. i personally don't think the way you can buy in is perfect. it is commented that the tournament will finish earlier because people have to go to work, but if the buy in for event 1 starts at midnight on the 1st sept then everybody has to stay up to then on a work night to register.

As for APAT making a profit I'm not sure that is right either. if membership fees, juice go back into getting more for the players than fine, if it goes towards expenses/wages for the organisers then fine because to be fair how many people would want to take this on.

I hope this is a success and fair play to tikay, tighty, Mel and desd for doing this good luck.

As it stands, payout to finalists will be by cheque in the stated amounts for each finisher by position

Ok, what is the job of the holding company, it is taking money out of the APAT? Is that right? I am not too versed in these matters.



I haven't seen many amateurs complain about standardised rules, infact i have only ever heard that from pro's! It is something that needs addressing, but i do not think it is within the remit of an amateur association. How do you propose getting sponsorship for weekly events? In Brighton we are lucky enough that the poker league is sponsored. I don't see how you would make that happen on anything other than an individual case.




The idea i thought was to have an event at a smaller price but similar structure to that of a big buyin event. The vic took loads of flak for not having a 150-300 level, imagine how bad it would have been with no 800-1600! Why have a 8k-16k and no 800-1600? It just doesn't make any sense. It will become a crapshoot as soon as you go from 600-1200 to 1k-2k. There is no need for a 500-1000 level, well not at the expense of the 800-1600 anyway.





Surely if you deal then you are more likely to get a competitive final given the added money that first place will get. People wont be trying to sneak up the prize ladder once a deal is done, they will be going for gold!



My apologies i must have misread an earlier thread. What are these added items and expenses? And are they added items if the players have paid for them?

Any feedback on membership figures Tighty? even though only launched yesterday would give an indication.

I have said repeatedly on the thread that I am not comfortable with a midnight click fest for 120 seats. We are looking at alternatives, possibly a ballot

None of the organisers are waged

several hundred have joined as members

It was 200 on Day 1 alone

Why by cheque - what is wrong with cash?

All,

I just want to say that despite my initial doubts about this association, I was won over when it became apparent to me they were focusing on the real important issues that most amateurs face with regards to getting started in live poker:

Poker At The Olympics

The APAT is committed to the continuing development of poker as a respectable, regulated, competitive amateur activity.

As a result of poker’s worldwide popularity, the APAT are determining the feasibility of lobbying for the inclusion of amateur poker as a trial event within the 2012 Olympic Games.

The APAT will consult with the appropriate bodies, including the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games (“LOCOG”), before finalising our position on whether a poker tournament would meet the criteria for acceptance as a credible Olympic event, and determining our next course of action.

Organisations that really attack the main issues with grass-roots poker such as the oft debated olympics issue head-on,  will continue to recieve my 100% backing

 rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

nothing is wrong with cash Matt, we are collecting the money online first as you know and will draw cheques to the preannounced prize structure

James...the items are added value compared to other comps...trophies, mememtoes, lunch for all finalists with tikay, name badges, welcome packs etc

as to your other questions, i will pass your feedbackj on (code, you are a terrier who will not let go of my leg)

totalise, care to come and talk to Seb Coe with me?

Totalise  ;tightend; rotflmfao

Well it depends how you look at this:

If I sell my property, I am now "retired".

I do not play poker for a living and pay the bills out of my profits; poker is my little money-making hobby.

There is an incrdible amount of grey area here and I don't envy your task, but I'm all in favour of the benefits that can be derived from a united voice to improve things for the average poker-player, a cause that I was championing on this forum before I saw you on here.

Shouldn't that be for the first 9 out as a punishment?

fair point

For real ignominy you get to go the lunch too  :D

such a frustrating topic for someone trying to bite their lip and not post anything controvertial.

I am going to try and have another say and think carefuly about my phrasing.

I think the issue of Pro/amature as it's being discussed in this thread is a HUGE red herring. As I posted in a thread recently I've just returned to full time work after trying to grind out a living from low stake poker. I never drew any profit from my Tshirt business and wasnt drawing unemployment benefit so there's no doubt 'technically' I was a Pro. that said, three months ago I couldnt afford a trip to Birmingham and a £75 entry fee. now Im an amature again I can easily afford £75 (though I still think it's too much)

I have a feeling that when the words Pro and Amature are banded around theres alot of ego at stake. maybe some players who proudly call themselves pros suddenly see a nice juicey game they are excluded from. maybe some players who are sharks in their local game are afraid that this 'amature event' will be filled with bigger sharks than them. maybe there are some players afraid of admitting that rather than being pros they're unemployed.

As I say, I think the agrument is a red herring. put together events that are unattractive to the genuine pros and worthwhile to amatures. For me that's a £50 1 day game with a reasonable starting stack (10kish) and a moderate clock (30 mins ish).

If you get some online pros or some low stakes live grinders, thats ok. many of them will add to the atmosphere anyway (particularly some of our resident online pros) you're unlikely to get many 5 figure winners in the door, and if the odd one turns up, over a field of amatures they won't have a huge edge.

Please make a bold executive decision on this and get the discussion moved on because I fear this issue will cloud over all the potential good the organisation can achieve

Also, please reconsider the 600/1200 to 1000/2000 jump. it's a swing and a miss.

AdamM the perfect example of what I have been trying to say....

The crux of my problem, is that I am 100% behind a poker association for the UK, and all the good it can do, for cardrooms, pro's and amatuers alike. However this association is under the umbrella of a commercial enterprise. No credible association should be under an umbrella like this.

The foundation is fantastic but the building is not!!

These should be two seperate entities. With the association completely detached from any commercial interest. Run by people who care about poker and do not care about the money they may make. Tikay , yourself and Mel are doing this without financial interest, showing that you care about the direction of poker, so you are the right people with the right motives, as would be agreed by anyone on this forum. The dark cloud however is APL.

This is a backdoor way of holding legal comps, without the expense of running, staffing and hiring of a property, and completely amazed that the Broadway has swallowed for this. Do they know that you intend to pay by cheque and that they won't be able to have a sniff at the £8,500 ish in prize money?

Juice is a neccessity for DTD for eg, but I am so passionate that a casino should never charge players to pay. By that extent the Broadway will have allowed someone else to charge it rather than themselves, on their premises. I can tell you now what will happen, the Broadway will see that they can make £500- £1000 a night and still get full (because juice is the norm now) and my fights against it will be undone. This gets my goat. Not only that, If and i say If it remains at £7.50 juice it will be over 10% and if it is agreed by the gaming board, opening a whole new can of worms.

Casino's can hold good comps, with good structures with varying degrees of entrance for their amatuer poker players, direction is needed in areas like house rules, unified rules, payout structures, greivance procedures, penalties etc. The people that run these cardrooms (supervisors and TD's) know what will be successful, and if I was still working @ the Broadway, I would be screwing that someone could come in and run a comp "the way players want it run", we know how they want it run, they are our customers (ok technically not being as though this is a private comp). It is the management that puts the interest of the pit first that we are fighting.  Is this a "watch how it should be done" excercise?

Every poker player in the country should be included FREE or maybe voluntary donations and I so wish I was further down the line with my project (no plug because i am no where near completion). This maybe why I am so outspoken on this subject, because it incorporates some of my ethos and then goes off at a completely different tangent than I would. I can see that I am not doing any favours towards APAT, so will bow out of this debate and stop sticking my oar in. May still ask a few questions though :D

Wow... It's been a job trying to keep up with this thread!!!

I've just introduced our cat to the neighbours pigeons, so I'll now share a thought with you all...

I wonder... if the APA (no T) had been launched yesterday, with a £10 membership fee, purely as an association to provide a voice for the amateur, recreational player... with no mention of cheap tourneys with attractive added value...

Would so much of this thread have been taken up with trying define the line between amateur and professional? Would so many, who by their own admission play poker as their primary source of income, be so keen to sign up?  I think not.

Unfortunately the definition on the APAT homepage - "any individual who earns his or her SOLE income by playing poker" - opens the door to just about everyone.

Well, that was my thought for the day... now back to reality...

Cheers,
Alan  ;hide;

Exactly!